Everything is possible without the grand design

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Here we first argue that the universe is infinite. We then argue that any type of organism, simple virus, fungi, plant, human, etc., is possible in such a word.

Universe is infinite:
  1. Lets assume that universe is finite
  2. This means that the universe is bounded by a boundary
  3. The boundary could be finite or infinite either
  4. Lets assume that the boundary is finite as well
  5. We can consider the universe and the boundary as a new universe which is finite
  6. This obviously leads to infinite regress since the new universe needs a boundary as well (following (2))
  7. Therefore the universe is infinite
Everything is possible:
  1. Any organism is made of a set elements with a given form
  2. Any form is possible in a infinite universe
  3. Therefore everything is possible without the grand design
 
I think you left out a few things that you would need for “everything” to be possible. Infinity is not enough. In an infinite diamond crystal, for example, the possibilities are infinite (infinite number of vibrational modes, for example) but still limited (no life, for example).

What about the laws of nature which allow “everything” to happen? Laws that govern nuclear and chemical reactions, for example. These too are part of the Grand Design.
 
Beryllos said:
I think you left out a few things that you would need for “everything” to be possible. Infinity is not enough. In an infinite diamond crystal, for example, the possibilities are infinite (infinite number of vibrational modes, for example) but still limited (no life, for example).
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You of course can have infinite forms of element of carbon too. Think of Graphene , nano-tube, etc. I have no argument in favor or against that a mere carbon base life is possible or not. What I am arguing is that you can for sure find life in the universe if life is possible. This is not the case if the universe is finite.
Beryllos said:
What about the laws of nature which allow “everything” to happen? Laws that govern nuclear and chemical reactions, for example. These too are part of the Grand Design.
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The laws of natures just tell you how particles move and interact with each other. They could be different yet you could have life.
 
STT said:
The laws of natures just tell you how particles move and interact with each other. They could be different yet you could have life.
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I don’t know about that. Physicists tell us that there are many (about 26) natural constants which “just tell you how particles move and interact.” One of the great mysteries is that these constants seem to be “fine-tuned.” If some of them were the least bit different, it is doubtful that life of any kind could exist. (See Wikipedia: Fine-Tuned Universe for a brief description.)

When you wrote (in the thread title) “grand design,” that’s what I thought you meant. Even in an infinite universe, life cannot exist unless the laws of nature permit it.
 
STT said:
Everything is possible:
  1. Any organism is made of a set elements with a given form
  2. Any form is possible in a infinite universe
  3. Therefore everything is possible without the grand design
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If the universe is infinite, and everything therefore is possible, then it is also possible that the infinite universe was the product of a grand design.
 
Just wanted to add that the surface of a ball (a sphere) is finite and closed but has no boundaries.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
If the universe is infinite, and everything therefore is possible, then it is also possible that the infinite universe was the product of a grand design.
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Indeed. We don’t live according to what is possible but what is probable. That is why the OP is insignificant.
 
STT said:
Here we first argue that the universe is infinite. We then argue that any type of organism, simple virus, fungi, plant, human, etc., is possible in such a word.

Universe is infinite:
  1. Lets assume that universe is finite
  2. This means that the universe is bounded by a boundary
  3. The boundary could be finite or infinite either
  4. Lets assume that the boundary is finite as well
  5. We can consider the universe and the boundary as a new universe which is finite
  6. This obviously leads to infinite regress since the new universe needs a boundary as well (following (2))
  7. Therefore the universe is infinite
Click to expand...
Let’s look at “universe” consisting of an interval (0; 1) (not including 0 and 1). The length of the interval is finite. The boundary consists of 0 and 1. Let’s add it to the original interval. We get [0; 1]. Its boundary is still the same. We can repeat the process, but nothing will change, as the boundary already belongs to the interval.

Thus you made a mistake by smuggling in an implicit premise saying that adding boundary to the universe makes it larger.

Alternatively, let’s consider a “universe” consisting of numbers 0 and 1. Its boundary is… um, does it even make sense to talk about one?

Thus it is not certain if existence of boundary is necessary for a finite universe. You have to say something else about that universe before reaching such conclusion.
STT said:
Everything is possible:
  1. Any organism is made of a set elements with a given form
  2. Any form is possible in a infinite universe
  3. Therefore everything is possible without the grand design
Click to expand...
It doesn’t follow. A “universe” consisting of all real numbers is infinite, but it does not include imaginary numbers.

You are equivocating on the word “infinite”. “Having infinite size” does not mean “having infinite number of forms”.
 
Beryllos said:
I don’t know about that. Physicists tell us that there are many (about 26) natural constants which “just tell you how particles move and interact.” One of the great mysteries is that these constants seem to be “fine-tuned.” If some of them were the least bit different, it is doubtful that life of any kind could exist. (See Wikipedia: Fine-Tuned Universe for a brief description.)

When you wrote (in the thread title) “grand design,” that’s what I thought you meant. Even in an infinite universe, life cannot exist unless the laws of nature permit it.
Click to expand...
I am aware of fine tune argument. Lets think of universe with specific set of parameters P which moves based on laws of nature L. Lets think that this universe is finite. This means that the number of main elements, elementary particle for example, are finite therefore life is only possible in such a universe. You can have life for sure if there is a deity who could intervene. What I am arguing is that you don’t need God intervention if the size of universe is infinite. In another word if we can have life with God’s intervention in finite universe then we can have life without God’s intervention in infinite universe. So to sum it up, the life is certain in infinite universe if it is possible in finite universe. This is the core of the argument.
 
STT said:
I am aware of fine tune argument. Lets think of universe with specific set of parameters P which moves based on laws of nature L. Lets think that this universe is finite. This means that the number of main elements, elementary particle for example, are finite therefore life is only possible in such a universe. You can have life for sure if there is a deity who could intervene. What I am arguing is that you don’t need God intervention if the size of universe is infinite. In another word if we can have life with God’s intervention in finite universe then we can have life without God’s intervention in infinite universe. So to sum it up, the life is certain in infinite universe if it is possible in finite universe. This is the core of the argument.
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To be fair, infinite does not mean all possibilities are played out or that all things are possible.
 
MPat said:
Let’s look at “universe” consisting of an interval (0; 1) (not including 0 and 1). The length of the interval is finite. The boundary consists of 0 and 1. Let’s add it to the original interval. We get [0; 1]. Its boundary is still the same. We can repeat the process, but nothing will change, as the boundary already belongs to the interval.

Thus you made a mistake by smuggling in an implicit premise saying that adding boundary to the universe makes it larger.

Alternatively, let’s consider a “universe” consisting of numbers 0 and 1. Its boundary is… um, does it even make sense to talk about one?

Thus it is not certain if existence of boundary is necessary for a finite universe. You have to say something else about that universe before reaching such conclusion.
Click to expand...
Where do you draw your line? On a surface. Therefore surface is your boundary if line is your universe.
MPat said:
It doesn’t follow. A “universe” consisting of all real numbers is infinite, but it does not include imaginary numbers.

You are equivocating on the word “infinite”. “Having infinite size” does not mean “having infinite number of forms”.
Click to expand...
I assume that a infinite universe has infinite stuff within therefore any combination of stuff is possible.
 
STT said:
Where do you draw your line? On a surface. Therefore surface is your boundary if line is your universe.
Click to expand...
But there is no surface. The whole universe in this scenario consists of a line (of a finite length).

I guess you were trying to imagine the scenario. Don’t do that. Imagination does not deal with a different number of dimensions that well.

You have to use logical reasoning instead. Write down the premises you have and see what can be concluded from them.

You might end up having to use imagination when logical reasoning no longer gives you anything new (for example, when you have yet to find the first premises). But make sure to do everything in an orderly way: write down that you are using imagination.

Also, my second scenario had “discrete” universe. Are you sure it makes sense to talk about boundaries in such case? And yet, it seems to fit your premises. Maybe you should modify those premises?
STT said:
I assume that a infinite universe has infinite stuff within therefore any combination of stuff is possible.
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And if you did not assume that?
 
MPat said:
But there is no surface. The whole universe in this scenario consists of a line (of a finite length).

I guess you were trying to imagine the scenario. Don’t do that. Imagination does not deal with a different number of dimensions that well.

You have to use logical reasoning instead. Write down the premises you have and see what can be concluded from them.

You might end up having to use imagination when logical reasoning no longer gives you anything new (for example, when you have yet to find the first premises). But make sure to do everything in an orderly way: write down that you are using imagination.

Also, my second scenario had “discrete” universe. Are you sure it makes sense to talk about boundaries in such case? And yet, it seems to fit your premises. Maybe you should modify those premises?
Click to expand...
That is how I imagine it: Think of a sphere with a specific radius. This sphere is bounded with something, lets call it boundary. Lets think that that thing is another sphere with bigger radius. The story continue unless one of boundary has radius of infinity.

You can reduce the size of the first sphere to zero. That gives you a dot.
MPat said:
And if you did not assume that?
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Therefore you need intelligence design or evolution for life.
 
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