Evidence against the saints?

[PandaBean]

I had a friend point this out to me the other day, and since it was from the NLT (New Living Translation) which if one knows much about translations knows this one’s not the best, I went home and looked through my small collection of translations. (I collect translations) I am wondering what the official Church position is on this, since it seems to refute intercession of the saints and saints in heaven to begin with.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

(NLT)
The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, nor are they remembered. Whatever they did in their lifetime - loving, hating, envying - is all long gone. They no longer have a part in anything here on earth.

(NAB)
For the living know that they are to die, but the dead no longer know anything. There is no futher recompense for them, because all memory of them is lost. For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun.

(NRSV-CE)
The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no more reward, and even the memory of them is lost. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished; never again will they have any share in all that happens under the sun.

The way my friend explained this to me is “They no longer have a part in anything here on earth.” Hence saints in heaven, even if they are in heaven, cannot interceed for anything here on earth. My more Catholic translations do not seem to clearly refute this position as a matter of translation or with footnotes on interpretation and I’m not sure where to look in the CCC. Could you please help so I can continue my disscusion with my friend?

 

[gsaman]

“the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8)

“the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16). Who is more righteous then the saints in heaven?

The Catholic belief is not new:

“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (*Miscellanies *7:12 [A.D. 208]).

see: catholic.com/library/intercession_of_the_saints.asp

 

[Fidelis]

1. The Old Testament understanding of the afterlife was deficient in many ways in that they did not have the full revelation as is found in the New Testament. This is apparent especially in the book cited, Ecclesiastes, since it is primarily a meditation on what the vanity of earthly life would be in the absence of any hope in heaven or other meaningful afterlife.
2. Before Christ’s sacrifice, heaven as a normal destination for the righteous was not open to most men. Some notable exceptions that we know about are (perhaps) Moses, Elijah, and Enoch, but Jews in general expected to go to a place of shadowy existence called Sheol. Heaven as we know it was unknown to them.

Here’s some more examples for you that show there is activity and awareness in heaven and that our prayers are heard by them and for the “dead”:

Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah & Moses
Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events
Rev 6:9-11 - martyrs under altar want earthly vindication
Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Lk 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Rev 20:4 - saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
Wis 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
2Macc 15:7-16 - the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews
Jas 5:16 prayers of righteous man
1 Cor. 13:12 - I shall understand fully
1 John 4: 20-21 - whoever loves God must love his brother
1 Cor 12:21 - parts of Christ’s Body cannot say to other parts, “I do not need you”.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Our saints are not dead but alive in Christ!
We can be assured of this by the words of Jesus found in scripture.
Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this? John 11:25-26

Amen, amen, I say to you whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life, your ancestors ate the manna in the desrt, but they died, this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat in and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world. John 6:47-51
(John 6 may give your friend some trouble because most protestants interpret those words symbolically, but Catholics take them literally.)

And from the Catechism of the Catholic Church 2683:
The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom (Heb 12:1), especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those who they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were “put in charge of many things.” (Mt. 25:21) Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.

 

[Zooey]

Your friend is quoting out of context, & without regard for the type of literature that Eclesiates is.
The book is a collection of wisdom sayings.It was written to" [set] forth the vanity of the things of this world".
Heaven & the saints are not “things of this world”.
As others have all ready said, the OT authors spoke from a limited understanding of life after death. Then too, before Christ’s sacrificail death on the cross, the doors of Heaven were closed by the sin of Adam & Eve.
I commend you for comparing translations of the scriptures!! This is a wonderful way to learn to understand them better.
God bless.

 

[Genesis315]

The Saints aren’t dead. They are alive in Christ.

 

[Neithan]

Here is the note from the New American Bible:

*These statement *

(sic)* are based on a very imperfect concept of life beyond the grave. With Christian revelation about the future life came the only satisfactory solution of the problem which so perplexed the author.*

Ecclesiastes is speculating here, he doesn’t really know what he’s talking about. Some Jews didn’t believe in the resurrection, such as the Sadducees, but Jesus rebuked them (Matthew 22:23-33). This is a good analogy for people today with little or no faith, and ‘reason’ as their only guide. Ecclesiastes can be likened (somewhat) to modern-day Deists imo.