Evolution and Original Sin

[PatThePoet]

Ok, to my knowledge Pope Pius XII stated that Catholics couldn’t believe in polygenism and had to believe in ONE Adam, ONE Eve, and it was through this ONE COUPLE that sin was transmitted to all human beings.

But doesn’t this defy scientific fact that homo sapiens evolved from the great apes? This is a big problem for Christanity, seeing as man needed to of fallen to be redeemed by Jesus Christ.

Is it polygenism or monogenism? And how does it all fit in with evolution?

(And please, no Richard Dawkins disciples spewing their “God is Dead” nonsence, that has really gotten in the way before)

Thanks

 

[The_Barbarian]

Ok, to my knowledge Pope Pius XII stated that Catholics couldn’t believe in polygenism and had to believe in ONE Adam, ONE Eve, and it was through this ONE COUPLE that sin was transmitted to all human beings.

Yep.

But doesn’t this defy scientific fact that homo sapiens evolved from the great apes?

Evolutionary theory doesn’t say we evolved from the great apes. Unless you want to call all hominoids “great apes.” But that would then include us as apes. We have a common ancestor with other apes. But none of this rules out the idea that God chose two humans of some species or another.

This is a big problem for Christanity, seeing as man needed to of fallen to be redeemed by Jesus Christ.

There isn’t any problem. It’s just the way He chose to do it.

 

[mapleoak]

But doesn’t this defy scientific fact that homo sapiens evolved from the great apes?

Excepting that it is not possible to say that such a thing is a “scientific fact”. Science itself would deny that possibility. It can only therorize.

Further we have to assume that if man is derived from other non-human creatures than the “slime of the earth” is a reference to these creatures.

Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

 

[rossum]

Ok, to my knowledge Pope Pius XII stated that Catholics couldn’t believe in polygenism and had to believe in ONE Adam, ONE Eve, and it was through this ONE COUPLE that sin was transmitted to all human beings.

But doesn’t this defy scientific fact that homo sapiens evolved from the great apes? This is a big problem for Christanity, seeing as man needed to of fallen to be redeemed by Jesus Christ.

Is it polygenism or monogenism? And how does it all fit in with evolution?

A farmer has a flock of sheep. He picks one ram and one ewe, he marks both the ram and the ewe with spot of purple paint. Every lamb fathered by the marked ram is given a purple spot. Every lamb birthed by the marked ewe is given a purple spot. Every lamb which has one or both parents marked with a purple spot gets its own purple spot from the farmer. After a few generations all the sheep in the flock will have a purple spot. Hence all the sheep are descended from that initial pair - call tham Adram and Ewe

Evolution says nothing about souls - a soul does not fossilise and a soul cannot be pinned down to a certain sequence of DNA. All evolution talks about is the material origin of our physical bodies.

rossum

 

[mapleoak]

A farmer has a flock of sheep. He picks one ram and one ewe, he marks both the ram and the ewe with spot of purple paint. Every lamb fathered by the marked ram is given a purple spot. Every lamb birthed by the marked ewe is given a purple spot. Every lamb which has one or both parents marked with a purple spot gets its own purple spot from the farmer. After a few generations all the sheep in the flock will have a purple spot. Hence all the sheep are descended from that initial pair - call tham Adram and Ewe

This would mean humans mated with non humans though.

 

[The_Barbarian]

This would mean humans mated with non humans though.

There were other species of human before (and after) ours appeared. From which species of human Adam and Eve came, I do not know.

It’s a meaningless question scientifically, and I can’t see any reason why it is important to our faith.

 

[mapleoak]

There were other species of human before (and after) ours appeared. From which species of human Adam and Eve came, I do not know.

It’s a meaningless question scientifically, and I can’t see any reason why it is important to our faith.

Would there be any theological problems associated with the belief that Adam and Eve and their descendants could have mated with other animals (without immortal souls) to create the human race. Or would this be saying that God also breathed souls into other animals prior to procreating with Adam and Eve?

 

[rossum]

This would mean humans mated with non humans though.

That depends on how you define “human”. Is a “large-brained upright-walking primate without a soul” human or not? Remember that on this scenario all the members of the population are from the same biological species and can interbreed successfully.

All proposed explanations run into the question of where did Cain and Seth get their wives from? The traditional solution has been incest; this suggestion avoids that problem. I am not sure how what is the correct description of the mating of a souled human with a non-souled human to produce souled human children. I am not sure that the English language has a word for it.

rossum

 

[mapleoak]

That depends on how you define “human”. Is a “large-brained upright-walking primate without a soul” human or not? Remember that on this scenario all the members of the population are from the same biological species and can interbreed successfully.

Right. We would be assuming that ‘human’ means a creature that is genetically human whether or not it has an immortal soul. There has been debate on whether it is possible for something to be genetically human and not have an immortal soul. For instance with cloning, there is the separation of genetic code from one parent exclusively, but that which starts to grow of its own accord. Since it is genetically a distinct human being, some would say it therefore must have an immortal soul created by God. Remember that with cloning the normal “pro-creation” aspect of Father, Mother, and God, one of the aspects is missing, either the father or the mother. So it is only father and God, or mother and God. The argument is that since it is a genetically separate human being it therefore must have an immortal soul created by God. This would contradict the ability for there to exist ‘non-immortal soul’ human beings at the time of Adam and Eve. If it is assumed that these could have existed, then it would also seem to indicate that it is possible cloned human beings may not have immortal souls.
Otherwise we would have to reason that any distinct human being derived from a souled human being, in no matter what capacity or through whatever means, also would have an immortal soul.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Would there be any theological problems associated with the belief that Adam and Eve and their descendants could have mated with other animals (without immortal souls) to create the human race.

Seems unlikely to have occurred. The evidence indicates that all humans living today have a common ancestor. I don’t think there’s any reason to believe it, and I don’t see anything in the teaching of the Church to support it.

Or would this be saying that God also breathed souls into other animals prior to procreating with Adam and Eve?

Don’t see how.

 

[NTOT]

Seems unlikely to have occurred. The evidence indicates that all humans living today have a common ancestor. I don’t think there’s any reason to believe it, and I don’t see anything in the teaching of the Church to support it.

I agree. But as Rossum points out, a common ancestor is possible even with ‘outbreeding’. Personally, I don’t believe this happened, but the evidence doesn’t say different.

 

[mapleoak]

Seems unlikely to have occurred. The evidence indicates that all humans living today have a common ancestor. I don’t think there’s any reason to believe it, and I don’t see anything in the teaching of the Church to support it.

I don’t see any reason to believe it either (but that is nothing more than a personal view), but looking at the evidence, the evidence will show a common ancestor. But the evidence itself doesn’t rule out the interbreeding also occured.

 

[Benadam]

I am not sure how what is the correct description of the mating of a souled human with a non-souled human to produce souled human children. I am not sure that the English language has a word for it.

rossum

A beatific vision of Adam immortalizing Eve’s soul.