Evolution and the Church

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harshcshah

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Before I ask my question: DO NOT TALK ABOUT SCIENCE HERE - my question is not about science, I am not interested in the science of evolution in this query.

The dogmatic teaching on creation of the Fourth Lateran Council taught that:
God…creator of all visible and invisible things, of the spiritual and of the
corporal; who by His own omnipotent power at once from the beginning of time
created each creature from nothing, spiritual and corporal, namely, angelic and
mundane, and finally the human, constituted as it were, alike of the spirit and the
body (D.428).
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The most natural reading of this and the reading the Church has had precludes the scientific theory of evolution. Therefore, regardless of non-magisterial statements by Pope’s, how are we to understand evolution? Is there any way a Catholic can accept the theory?
 
harshcshah said:
The most natural reading of this and the reading the Church has had precludes the scientific theory of evolution.
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I would disagree. Where it says “[God] created each creature from nothing”, it would only preclude evolution if literally each creature was created ‘ex nihilo’. But, we know that’s not true – creatures are being born each day. So, it can’t mean “each and every creature to live on this earth.”

But, maybe it means species? “[God] created each species of creature from nothing”, maybe? Except… we know that this isn’t true, either! We see that there is speciation that occurs, even within the scope of the last few hundred years!

(Think about dogs – the various breeds only came into existence through the selective breeding directed by humans. There were no spaniels and terriers and chihuahuas at the creation of the universe.)

So… they can’t be talking about ‘species’, either!

What are they saying, then? Maybe we can cut to the chase: they’re saying that humans were created ex nihilo, perhaps?

No… that can’t be, either. Adam is said to have been created from the dirt of the earth, and Eve from Adam’s rib.

So… what does “the most natural reading” tell us? That they’re asserting that creation itself was ex nihilo. Not that one specific scientific theory is invalid because it seems to disagree with one particular reading of the text.
harshcshah said:
Therefore, regardless of non-magisterial statements by Pope’s, how are we to understand evolution? Is there any way a Catholic can accept the theory?
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God isn’t the uninterested ‘watchmaker’ of the Deist’s imagination. He sustains creation in its every moment. We continue to benefit from God’s fatherly care over His creation. Evolution – as a scientific theory, and not the pseudo-religious-philosophical tradition that has also appeared on the scene – is not in conflict with a loving creator.
 
nicholasG said:
You don’t want to talk about science yet you ask a scientific question. 😲
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What I meant was that that I didn’t want people coming in for scientific evidence for evolution and attempting to “debunk” creationism; I’m looking for a way to reconcile the theory with doctrine or to know if Lateran IV means we should reject the theory absolutely.
 
How would you reconcile your position with the dogmatic teaching of Lateran IV on creation when it says:
God…creator of all visible and invisible things, of the spiritual and of the
corporal; who by His own omnipotent power at once from the beginning of time
created each creature from nothing, spiritual and corporal, namely, angelic and
mundane, and finally the human, constituted as it were, alike of the spirit and the
body (D.428).
Click to expand...
Is there a way consistent with Tradition to hold both Lateran IV and evolution?
 
harshcshah said:
Is there a way consistent with Tradition to hold both Lateran IV and evolution?
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harshcshah said:
created each creature from nothing
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Sure. A creature can be created from nothing in a manner that is gradual. Evolution is a gradual process.

You might point to the words “at once” to suggest there’s no time component, but I’d point to the words “and finally” to show that there clearly is a time component.

Before the creation, there was nothing, therefore everything created was created from nothing. But within creation, God can develop creatures to completion through a time-taking process.

So basically, an evolutionist might say: "God created storks from nothing through a creative process that included the use of evolution across time.
 
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harshcshah said:
How would you reconcile your position with the dogmatic teaching of Lateran IV on creation when it says
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I just did. I showed that your interpretation of Lateran IV doesn’t hold up. And, since it doesn’t hold up as denying evolution, you cannot use it in a way that suggests it does.
harshcshah said:
Is there a way consistent with Tradition to hold both Lateran IV and evolution?
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Yes: quit asserting that Lateran IV denies evolution. 😉
 
How would you read this:
…created each creature from nothing, spiritual and corporal, namely, angelic and
mundane…
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I’m genuinely interested in fully understanding your perspective.
 
If you do a search with our search engine by typing for example “fourth lateran council on evolution” - but also combine the keywords you prefer - dozens of results will come out.

Maybe someone has already answered your question.
 
harshcshah said:
I’m genuinely interested in fully understanding your perspective.
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Well, I think we have to ask what they mean by “each creature”. I outlined three possible interpretations, all of which fail to hold up under scrutiny.

Now, here’s one possibility that seems to have legs: we say that God creates each soul immediately (that is, without the mediation of anyone or anything else). He creates souls “from nothing”. So, we could take this to mean “the soul”. We can posit “from nothing”, in spiritual terms, both of “angelic and mundane and human” creatures. After all, they explicitly point out that they’re not just thinking “physical”, but “spirit”. Interestingly, we see “angelic and mundane” pointed out, in a seeming parallelism with “of the spirit and the body”. And, “human” follows that list of creatures, and they seem to be saying that humans are “alike” of the makeup of angels and animals. (Just thinking out loud, here.)

So, my take on it is that you cannot interpret this as implying that ‘each creature’ means “each creature that ever lived” or “each species of creature” or even “the first humans.” Therefore, this cannot be construed to be interpretable as denying the science of evolution.

However, if you want to interpret “from nothing” to mean physical matter, then you’ll have to deal with the objections I outlined above.
 
harshcshah said:
Is there a way consistent with Tradition to hold both Lateran IV and evolution?
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Yes. IDvolution

IDvolution - God “breathed” the super language of DNA into the “kinds” in the creative act.

This accounts for the diversity of life we see. The core makeup shared by all living things have the necessary complex information built in that facilitates rapid and responsive adaptation of features and variation while being able to preserve the “kind” that they began as. Life has been created with the creativity built in ready to respond to triggering events.

Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on Earth have the same core, it is virtually certain that living organisms have been thought of AT ONCE by the One and the same Creator endowed with the super language we know as DNA that switched on the formation of the various kinds, the cattle, the swimming creatures, the flying creatures, etc… in a pristine harmonious state and superb adaptability and responsiveness to their environment for the purpose of populating the earth that became subject to the ravages of corruption by the sin of one man (deleterious mutations).

IDvolution considers the latest science and is consistent with the continuous teaching of the Church.

IDvolution

ID=Intelligently Designed

volution - having a volute or rolled-up form.
 
Read Genesis. It does not say, “Let nothing bring forth…” It says “Let the waters bring forth…” and “Let the earth bring forth…”

In the final stage of the process, fish, birds and land animals did not come directly from nothing. The first stage of the process may have started from nothing, but not the last stage:
Nothing → waters/earth → fish, birds, land animals.
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$0.02
 
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