Ex-Catholic's Salvation

[Wannabe_Monk_16]

Hello CAF members!
I have a friend at work who’s faith journey goes as such:
1.) Baptized and raised Catholic
2.) Near total apostasy / atheism
3.) Born again non-denominational Christian
Whenever we discuss Catholic teaching, he always sends me links from the website CARM.org. Please excuse my naiveté, but after a quick keyword search on these forums, and I know that this won’t be the first time people have encountered this website. I know this site rejects most of Catholic theology.
I have two questions
1.) If someone rejects an incorrect interpretation of the Catholic Church, and an incorrect representation of her teachings, do they really reject the Catholic Church and jeopardize their salvation?
2.) As this clearly isn’t the first time Catholic apologists have encountered this site, does anyone have effective arguments refuting their (CARM’s) interpretations of Catholicism?
Sorry for the choppiness of the post and thank you for your helpful replies!
God bless!

 

[adamhovey1988]

Hello CAF members!
I have a friend at work who’s faith journey goes as such:
1.) Baptized and raised Catholic
2.) Near total apostasy / atheism
3.) Born again non-denominational Christian
Whenever we discuss Catholic teaching, he always sends me links from the website CARM.org. Please excuse my naiveté, but after a quick keyword search on these forums, and I know that this won’t be the first time people have encountered this website. I know this site rejects most of Catholic theology.
I have two questions
1.) If someone rejects an incorrect interpretation of the Catholic Church, and an incorrect representation of her teachings, do they really reject the Catholic Church and jeopardize their salvation?
2.) As this clearly isn’t the first time Catholic apologists have encountered this site, does anyone have effective arguments refuting their (CARM’s) interpretations of Catholicism?
Sorry for the choppiness of the post and thank you for your helpful replies!
God bless!

Let me put it this way, you should STILL help them come back to the Church, regardless of the reasons they left. HOWEVER, with regards to their salvation, I think poor catechisis is a big problem, and I don’t think theologically speaking, people can be responsible for what they don’t know. Set the ground rules, in the debate, if he could use a website like CARM to argue against Catholicism, you can use NewAdvent and Catholic Answers to argue FOR Catholicism, fair is fair.

 

[PraiseChrist]

Hello CAF members!
I have a friend at work who’s faith journey goes as such:
1.) Baptized and raised Catholic
2.) Near total apostasy / atheism
3.) Born again non-denominational Christian
Whenever we discuss Catholic teaching, he always sends me links from the website CARM.org. Please excuse my naiveté, but after a quick keyword search on these forums, and I know that this won’t be the first time people have encountered this website. I know this site rejects most of Catholic theology.
I have two questions
1.) If someone rejects an incorrect interpretation of the Catholic Church, and an incorrect representation of her teachings, do they really reject the Catholic Church and jeopardize their salvation?
2.) As this clearly isn’t the first time Catholic apologists have encountered this site, does anyone have effective arguments refuting their (CARM’s) interpretations of Catholicism?
Sorry for the choppiness of the post and thank you for your helpful replies!
God bless!

Ask them this question:
Why do you believe the Bible, and those specific books, are the inspired word of God?

The reason you can ask this is because St Augustine of Hippo said that the only reason to believe in the gospels is because of the authority of the Catholic Church adding those specific books to the Canon.

 

[PJM]

Hello CAF members!
I have a friend at work who’s faith journey goes as such:
1.) Baptized and raised Catholic
2.) Near total apostasy / atheism
3.) Born again non-denominational Christian
Whenever we discuss Catholic teaching, he always sends me links from the website CARM.org. Please excuse my naiveté, but after a quick keyword search on these forums, and I know that this won’t be the first time people have encountered this website. I know this site rejects most of Catholic theology.
I have two questions

1.) If someone rejects an incorrect interpretation of the Catholic Church, and an incorrect representation of her teachings, do they really reject the Catholic Church and jeopardize their salvation?

I dislike answering a question with a question, BUT
On WHAT basis is the determination that the interpretation is “in correct” {without specifics one cannot logically reply to your quarry}
IF you’re asking is there a moral obligation to believe a LIE? Obviously there is NOT. BUT how does one KNOW it’s a lie? And certainly unbelief in a provable-LIE has NO effect on one’s eternal destination.
As to the fate of apostatized catholic; here from Hebrews 6:1-8 is GOD’S Just view
1] Wherefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to things more perfect, not laying again the foundation of penance from dead works, and of faith towards God, [2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [3] And this will we do, if God permit. [4] For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5]Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Dewey bible explanation [1] The word of the beginning: The first rudiments of the Christian doctrine.
Dewey explanation [4] It is impossible: The meaning is, that it is impossible for such as have fallen after baptism, to be again baptized; and very hard for such as have apostatized from the faith, after having received many graces, to return again to the happy state from which they fell.

[6] And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery. [7] For the earth that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God.[8] But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers, is reprobate, and very near unto a curse, [WITHOUT REPENTANCE AND CONVERSION] whose end is to be burnt

2.) As this clearly isn’t the first time Catholic apologists have encountered this site, does anyone have effective arguments refuting their (CARM’s) interpretations of Catholicism?
Sorry for the choppiness of the post and thank you for your helpful replies!
God bless!

CARMS positions ARE refutable, when taken one issue at a time. It’s been years since I have visited their site, and my suggestion is just to avoid such rancor and foolishness.
If however you would like to discuss this further, send me a private message and we can do so. I don’t wish to hijack this THREAD

God Bless you

Patrick {PJM]

 

[Wannabe_Monk_16]

Ask them this question:
Why do you believe the Bible, and those specific books, are the inspired word of God?

The reason you can ask this is because St Augustine of Hippo said that the only reason to believe in the gospels is because of the authority of the Catholic Church adding those specific books to the Canon.

Unfortunately our conversations have been somewhat sporadic, so I haven’t asked him about canon of Scripture; but I will ask him the next time we dialogue.

 

[Wannabe_Monk_16]

I dislike answering a question with a question, BUT
On WHAT basis is the determination that the interpretation is “in correct” {without specifics one cannot logically reply to your quarry}
IF you’re asking is there a moral obligation to believe a LIE? Obviously there is NOT. BUT how does one KNOW it’s a lie? And certainly unbelief in a provable-LIE has NO effect on one’s eternal destination.

Among many other things, my friend and I disagree on the very nature of the Catholic Church. He does not believe that it is the one, true, holy, and apostolic Church, which I assume is incorrect. I was under the assumption that to reject the Catholic Church as the one true, holy, and apostolic Church that Jesus Christ established for the salvation of souls is to reject Christ. And that this rejection severely jeopardizes your salvation. That is why I fear for his salvation.

But, if his understanding of the Catholic Church is misinformed, is he truly rejecting the Catholic Church, or his mere misinformed perception of the Catholic Church?

CARMS positions ARE refutable, when taken one issue at a time. It’s been years since I have visited their site, and my suggestion is just to avoid such rancor and foolishness.
If however you would like to discuss this further, send me a private message and we can do so. I don’t wish to hijack this THREAD

God Bless you

Patrick {PJM]

Do you (or anyone else) know of any past threads that refute CARMS claims that attempt to disprove Catholic theology?

Thanks for the reply and God bless you too!

 

[PJM]

Among many other things, my friend and I disagree on the very nature of the Catholic Church. He does not believe that it is the one, true, holy, and apostolic Church, which I assume is incorrect. I was under the assumption that to reject the Catholic Church as the one true, holy, and apostolic Church that Jesus Christ established for the salvation of souls is to reject Christ. And that this rejection severely jeopardizes your salvation. That is why I fear for his salvation.

Here are is evident and “easy” proof of the RCC’s authority;;

Please pay close attention to:

1. the singular tense words used by an infallible GOD
2. And WHO is speaking AND who bis being specifically addressed

Here are a couple of sites you can usue to make the task easier:

[1] drbo.org/ [The Catholic Douay Bible]

[2] biblestudytools.com/parallel-bible/ [the Parallel Bible for comparisons]

Please reference them in this very logical sequence:

Mt 10: 1-8

Mt 16:15-19

John 17:17-20

Mt 28: 16-20

Acts 20:28-30

John 20:19-23

There IS a lot more but if these are rejected or not rightly understood; let it God and JUST pray MUCH… ONLY GOD can cause a conversion!

But, if his understanding of the Catholic Church is misinformed, is he truly rejecting the Catholic Church, or his mere misinformed perception of the Catholic Church?

Do you (or anyone else) know of any past threads that refute CARMS claims that attempt to disprove Catholic theology?

Thanks for the reply and God bless you too!

GOOGLE
"Catholic Answers/CARMS

God Bless you

PJM

 

[Viki63]

Hello CAF members!
I have a friend at work who’s faith journey goes as such:
1.) Baptized and raised Catholic
2.) Near total apostasy / atheism
3.) Born again non-denominational Christian

This has been my faith journey so far:
1.) Baptized Catholic
2) Raised Episcopalian
3.) Near total apostasy / agnosticism
4.) Born again non-denominational Christian
5) Confirmed Catholic, rejoined the church.

Your friend’s faith journey isn’t over yet. Pray for him.

.

 

[Wannabe_Monk_16]

This has been my faith journey so far:
1.) Baptized Catholic
2) Raised Episcopalian
3.) Near total apostasy / agnosticism
4.) Born again non-denominational Christian
5) Confirmed Catholic, rejoined the church.

Your friend’s faith journey isn’t over yet. Pray for him.

.

Thank you for your sharing your faith journey. I know this is pretty personal and I will completely understand if you choose not to share; but, is there anything that helped you go from 4.) to 5.) ?

 

[Sy_Noe]

CCC 846 “they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

Totally depends on what it means to “know”. Is merely knowing what the Catholic Church teaches enough? Or if one does not believe and have faith in today’s Catholic Church and teaching authority, do they truly know? And does “could not” mean can not or might not?

 

[Sy_Noe]

Ask them this question:
Why do you believe the Bible, and those specific books, are the inspired word of God?

The reason you can ask this is because St Augustine of Hippo said that the only reason to believe in the gospels is because of the authority of the Catholic Church adding those specific books to the Canon.

This reminds me about the time I asked a non Catholic and their answer was God can use whomever for whatever purpose at a given time He wants. But while I haven’t read thru the following thread, here’s one of 49 pgs. Maybe a few non Catholics gave an answer here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1019221

 

[DerekHV]

Thank you for your sharing your faith journey. I know this is pretty personal and I will completely understand if you choose not to share; but, is there anything that helped you go from 4.) to 5.) ?

Going from 4 to 5 depends on the individual.
Not all will do it, some will stay.
I joined a Pentecostal group for about a year as a young adult after a friend had converted from his Orthodox religion and asked me to join, but was glad to leave and come back home.
The whole thing just felt wrong, and when I brought a couple of family members along, they left half way through it. That was enough to convince me.
But on the CARM front, your friend will quote them as they will often come up on any Google search as one of the first antagonist to many Catholic theologies.
Most Catholics will not last long on a site like that. The carping and the sniping eventually will get to you, and you’ll either be banned or made Secular. (which in their eyes most other religions and Christian denominations are anyway).

 

[Wannabe_Monk_16]

Going from 4 to 5 depends on the individual.
Not all will do it, some will stay.
I joined a Pentecostal group for about a year as a young adult after a friend had converted from his Orthodox religion and asked me to join, but was glad to leave and come back home.
The whole thing just felt wrong, and when I brought a couple of family members along, they left half way through it. That was enough to convince me.
But on the CARM front, your friend will quote them as they will often come up on any Google search as one of the first antagonist to many Catholic theologies.
Most Catholics will not last long on a site like that. The carping and the sniping eventually will get to you, and you’ll either be banned or made Secular. (which in their eyes most other religions and Christian denominations are anyway).

Thank you for your insight and heads up.