Ex Cathredra Teachings

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And now you misrepresent me and Fr. Most. Fr. Most does not conclude that there is no Scriptural support for the Assumption, and I specifically stated that he doesn’t. He stated that it “seemed” (in the past tense) that it didn’t. He nowhere denies that it is in fact implicitly contained in Scripture. Here’s the post so people can once again view the extent of your misrepresentations: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3002018&postcount=67

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One can claim “implicit” but not actual scriptural suppost for any belief one wants to hold.

For example:

I Corinthians 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

Isaiah 40:31
Yet those who wait for the LORD Will gain new strength; They will mount up with wings like eagles, They will run and not get tired, They will walk and not become weary.

I can claim this is “implicit” scriptural support for Elvis flying around the universe in a UFO, can’t I?😃
 
Tah Dah! Now we finally understand your motivations for acting like you have. Yes, it makes very little sense being Catholic, according to you. Yet you state you are Catholic in your profile. In this very thread you affirm:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2991544&postcount=17

You claim to be Catholic but now confess that it makes no sense. You can’t even be honest about your anti-Catholicism. Add it to the list of misrepresentations. Given all of the above, why should anybody here trust anything you say?
It seems you’ve lapse into a bit of a rave here. Please provide evidence for you broad sweeping assertion.
 
A divine revelation is something that God revealed was true during the apostolic age during the original deposit of faith. .
You are correct. So please provide your evidence that the fact of the Assumption is stated in scripture or in any writing of the apostolic age.
 
I’ve explained to you that there are parallels between Eve and Mary-- and you will find these thoughts dating back into the early church too. I’ve explained to you the ways in which God has indeed raised up people like Enoch and Elijah even while they were still alive. I’ve also explained the dynamics between between the Adam and Eve of the Old contrasted to the Adam and Eve of the New. To be honest, you don’t seem to be interested though.
There are parallels between Jesus and Elvis too. But they are not the same person.

The claim of “parallels” and “implied in scripture” can cover anything one want them to.
 
Was Mary assumed into heaven or was Mary not assumed into heaven?

If you dispute this fact, please present valid evidence.

.
No. I don’t have to disprove an assertion until it has been proven, not merely claimed.

If I say that Peter had a halo, can I reasonably ask you to disprove my claim?
 
Mr. Ex Nihilo; said:
absence of her body

indicates a positive toward her assumption into heaven, your request for any evidence we had that the relics of Mary did not exist in the early centuries seems pointless.

There is, after all, an empty tomb which has been found here at the Tomb of the Virgin Mary in Jerusalem…

http://www.kosovo.net/news/archive/2005/August_28/files/1125181499_7d262llaftk_tombofmary.jpg

Consequently, floods, which happened in 1972, made it possible for archaeologists not only to clear the area but also to have the area around the crypt excavated. These excavations were carried out by the late Fr. Bellarmino Bagatti.

He concluded, from the excavations, that the tradition of Mary’s tomb in the valley of Johosaphat is clearly marked in a cemetery in use during the first century. Furthermore the tomb itself, originally made up of three chambers, was dug out with the same techniques used in tombs of the first century, like the Holy Sepulchre and the Kings’ tombs.

The actual tomb was the inner chamber of the whole complex. These archaeological findings, corroborated by literary documents (Palestinian, Syrian, Ethiopian and Greek) of the II-IV centuries together with the constant liturgical devotion are witness to the belief about the tomb of Mary next to Gethsemani since the beginning of the Christian era.

It is from these far away origins that comes the celebration of the feast of the Assumption on August 15 since the infant Church, at this tomb, solemnly celebrated the feast of the Assumption of Mary.

No, it hasn’t. There are a several claims about an alleged “tomb or Mary.” But they have an apocryphal (legendary not factual) basis.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Testimony in favor of Jerusalem
The apocryphal works of the second to the fourth century are all favourable to the Jerusalem tradition. According to the “Acts of St. John by Prochurus”, written (160-70) by Lencius, the Evangelist went to Ephesus accompanied by Prochurus alone and at a very advanced age, i.e. after Mary’s death. The two letters “B. Inatii missa S. Joanni”, written about 370, show that the Blessed Virgin passed the remainder of her days at Jerusalem. That of Dionysius the Areopagite to the Bishop Titus (363), the “Joannis liber de Dormitione Mariae” (third to fourth century), and the treatise “De transitu B.M. Virginis” (fourth century) place her tomb at Gethsemane.

Or

Testimony in favor or Ephesus
In a letter sent in 431 by the members of the Council of Ephesus to the clergy of Constantinople we read that Nestorius “reached the city of Ephesus where John the Theologian and the Mother of God, the Holy Virgin, were separated from the assembly of the holy Fathers”, etc. Tillemont has completed the elliptical phrase by adding arbitrarily, “have their tombs”.

He is followed by a few writers. According to the meditations of Sister Catherine Emmerich (d. 1824), compiled and published in 1852, the Blessed Virgin died and was buried not at Ephesus but three or four leagues south of the city. She is followed by those who accept her visions or meditations as Divine revelations. However, St. Brigid relates that at the time of her visit to the church of Gethsemane the Blessed Virgin appeared to her and spoke to her of her stay of three days in that place and of her Assumption into Heaven. The revelations of Ven. Maria d’Agreda do not contradict those of Catherine Emmerich.

Still more stories some accept as historical evidence!😃

Take your pick.😉
 
I think the late Fr. William Most provided the shortest and best summation about the supposed fact of the Assumption:

“There had been a problem of how the Pope could define the Assumption. There seemed to be nothing in Scripture on it, and what things there were in the Tradition of the Fathers seemed to come not from an apostolic origin, but from some apocryphal stories that circulated chiefly beginning in the fourth century.”

And quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia:

“The belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary is founded on the apocryphal treatise De Obitu S. Dominae, bearing the name of St. John, which belongs however to the fourth or fifth century. It is also found in the book De Transitu Virginis, falsely ascribed to St. Melito of Sardis, and in a spurious letter attributed to St. Denis the Areopagite. If we consult genuine writings in the East, it is mentioned in the sermons of St. Andrew of Crete, St. John Damascene, St. Modestus of Jerusalem and others. In the West, St. Gregory of Tours (De gloria mart., I, iv) mentions it first. The sermons of St. Jerome and St. Augustine for this feast, however, are spurious. St. John of Damascus (P. G., I, 96) thus formulates the tradition of the Church of Jerusalem:”

Now here’s the problem with the Dogma of the Assumption as an “infallible” ex cathedra papal teaching:

First Vatican I, Session 4, Chapter 4 (dealing with the establishment of papal infallibility):

"For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter
not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles. "

Clearly, if the fact of the Assumption is not found in scripture nor exists until the forth or fifth century, it is then a “new” teaching, and, according to the Council that decreed papal infallibility to begin with, it cannot be an infallible papal ex cathedra teaching.
 
I am sorry Little Les. I thought you were actually looking to honestly understand this better. I did not realize that you were actually just pretending to be Catholic in order to arouse our forums into frustration.

Please be at peace as the Lord guides you on your path to where ever you choose to go.
 
I am sorry Little Les. I thought you were actually looking to honestly understand this better. I did not realize that you were actually just pretending to be Catholic in order to arouse our forums into frustration.

Please be at peace as the Lord guides you on your path to where ever you choose to go.
Pretending to be Catholic? Really? I’ll have to ask my priest after Mass this morning. I’ll bring my baptismal certificate in case he want’s to burn it. But I don’t know how we correct all those diocesan records about by baptism, confirmation, marriage, etc. etc.

However, I don’t believe in Catholic fictions, Actually, I don’t think my priest does either, but he has to pretend to keep his job.😃

I take it that you are now trying this approach because you recognize the shallowness of your arguments.🤷
 
Clearly, if the fact of the Assumption is not found in scripture nor exists until the forth or fifth century, it is then a “new” teaching, and, according to the Council that decreed papal infallibility to begin with, it cannot be an infallible papal ex cathedra teaching.
Unless, of course, if the assumption into heaven actually did happen– in which case it is an event that happened during the early apostolic age. If that is the case (which we believe it to be), then it is not a new teaching but rather a teaching which indeed does conform to Scriptural principles (which we’ve explained) and traditional thoughts (which we’ve also explained) which did exist in the earliest parts of the Church and the Scriptures too-- in short, the assumption is an event which did happen as confirmed by the pope’s ex cathedra teaching.

You are free to reject this teaching if you wish. But a Catholic should not do this. I know that I don’t. And, to be honest, your comments against the teaching, noting your large smileys and the winks you often place in your posts, seems to show some infidelity on your part to demonstrate that the Church in some way simply doesn’t know what she’s talking about.

I suppose, at this point, there really is nothing more to be said regarding this, except to ask if you actually believe the assumption happened or not?

Do you actually believe the assumption happened or not?
 
Unless, of course, if the assumption into heaven actually did happen– in which case it is an event that happened during the early apostolic age. If that is the case (which we believe it to be), then it is not a new teaching but rather a teaching which indeed does conform to Scriptural principles (which we’ve explained) and traditional thoughts (which we’ve also explained) which did exist in the earliest parts of the Church and the Scriptures too-- in short, the assumption is an event which did happen as confirmed by the pope’s ex cathedra teaching.
QUOTE]

A pious legend developed in the fifth century or a fact of history?
 
You are free to reject this teaching if you wish. But a Catholic should not do this. I know that I don’t. And, to be honest, your comments against the teaching, noting your large smileys and the winks you often place in your posts, seems to show some infidelity on your part to demonstrate that the Church in some way simply doesn’t know what she’s talking about.
Instruction of the Holy Office 1866 (Pope Pius IX - the Pope who created the dogma of papal infallibility)
 
Mr. Ex Nihilo;3007623:
You are free to reject this teaching if you wish. But a Catholic should not do this. I know that I don’t. And, to be honest, your comments against the teaching, noting your large smileys and the winks you often place in your posts, seems to show some infidelity on your part to demonstrate that the Church in some way simply doesn’t know what she’s talking about.
Instruction of the Holy Office 1866 (Pope Pius IX - the Pope who created the dogma of papal infallibility)
"Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law,… It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given. "
Or the opposite Church teaching?
Catechism of the Catholic Church# 2414
“The seventh commandment forbids acts or enterprises that … lead to the enslavement of human beings, to their being bought, sold and exchanged like merchandise, in disregard for their personal dignity.”
“…that the Church in some way simply doesn’t know what she’s talking about.”
Ahhh…so you really are saying that the Church doesn’t know what she’s talking about after all. It appears that way to me anyway.

By the way, you won’t find an explicit condemantion of all forms of slavery in the Scriptures, a point that I’ve brought up toward those who adhere to some form of Sola Scriptura.

The Church, however, has indeed spoken on the issue of slavery.

Slavery and the Catholic Church

Let My People Go: The Catholic Church and Slavery
 
Ahhh…so you really are saying that the Church doesn’t know what she’s talking about after all. It appears that way to me anyway.

By the way, you won’t find an explicit condemantion of all forms of slavery in the Scriptures, a point that I’ve brought up toward those who adhere to some form of Sola Scriptura.

The Church, however, has indeed spoken on the issue of slavery.

Slavery and the Catholic Church

Let My People Go: The Catholic Church and Slavery
 
Ahhh…so you really are saying that the Church doesn’t know what she’s talking about after all. It appears that way to me anyway.

By the way, you won’t find an explicit condemantion of all forms of slavery in the Scriptures, a point that I’ve brought up toward those who adhere to some form of Sola Scriptura.

The Church, however, has indeed spoken on the issue of slavery.

Slavery and the Catholic Church

Let My People Go: The Catholic Church and Slavery
Starting about 1450, the Church began to object to some, but not all, practices of the slave trade, but never to slave ownership itself until the mid 1900’s when the Church’s traditional teaching on the scriptural approval of slave ownership was reversed and slave ownership was declared a sin and contrary to the natural law.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIV. Published 1912. Ethical Aspects of Slavery. (Note that this was the party line as late as 1912).

"From the beginning the Christian moralist did not condemn slavery as in se, or essentially, against the natural law or natural justice. The fact that slavery, tempered with many humane restrictions, was permitted under the Mosaic law would have sufficed to prevent the institution form being condemned by Christian teachers as absolutely immoral. They, following the example of St. Paul, implicitly accept slavery as not in itself incompatible with the Christian Law. "

But now it is!👍
 
Ummm … excuse me?

I will pray for you at Mass today.

MMR
Don’t you know about the Profession of Faith required for clergy to keep their jobs?

THE OATH OF FIDELITY
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

"With firm faith, I also believe everything contained in the Word of God, whether written or handed down in Tradition, which the Church, either by a solemn judgement or by the ordinary and universal Magisterium, sets forth to be believed as divinely revealed.

I also firmly accept and hold each and everything definitively proposed by the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals.

Moreover, I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act."

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/cdfoath.htm

Note: They don’t even have to be infallible or definitive. Just that his boss says so!😃
 
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