Excommunication, ex cathedra and canon law - a question!

[ocuinn]

These are questions from a friend of mine enquiring about the excommunication of various legislators in the US and in Mexico and the statements of Pope Benedict XVI:

Can the Pope’s remarks be considered ex_cathedra [and infallible] when he is making unverified in-flight enroute to Brazil statements that may contradict the lack of action in the jurisdiction of the Bishop (Mexico’s church official = NORBERTO RIVERO)?

Does the Pope have official jurisdiction to make excommunication a punishment to perhaps lapsed Catholic legislators or those with no real relation to the Roman Catholic parishes where they reside?

The legislators are not obtaining abortions but instead proposing national laws that might make the medical procedure more regularized. . . According to Pope Benedict’s logic those who work in the hospitals are subject to this church penalty?

Any help in answering these questions would be appreciated.

Thanks

Adrian

 

[puzzleannie]

the pope was not declaring new doctrine, he was reminding those Catholic legislators of doctrine already in place, that anyone who procures an abortion, performs an abortion, or assists and promotes abortion is already excommunicated, and incurs this penalty automatically by their actions. He did not issue a blanket excommunication off the cuff, he merely state the facts in clear language.

 

[CatholicCid]

For your questions, here’s my :twocents:

1. No. Not really sure how to explain this one, but the Pope was answering questions and such. I believe he would actually have to state that he was invoking his right as the Head of the Church to make an ex cathedra statement.
2. To my knowledge, the Pope cannot excommunicate anyone. Instead, it is the person’s individual actions that causes them to be excommunicated. They excommunicate themselves. At most, he can make an excommunication publically known and acknowledge that the Church recognizes the person as having excommunicated themselves.
3. What puzzleannie said. A legislator, by voting for legalized abortion, assists and promotes abortion.
   If a hospital worker performs an abortion, or assists and promotes abortion, then I believe they would be excommunicating themselves.
   I heard a Priest say how even driving someone to get an abortion is assisting and promotes abortion, and causes one to excommunicate themselves.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

These are questions from a friend of mine enquiring about the excommunication of various legislators in the US and in Mexico and the statements of Pope Benedict XVI:

Any help in answering these questions would be appreciated.

Thanks

Adrian

Can the Pope’s remarks be considered ex_cathedra [and infallible] when he is making unverified in-flight enroute to Brazil statements that may contradict the lack of action in the jurisdiction of the Bishop (Mexico’s church official = NORBERTO RIVERO)?

NO

Does the Pope have official jurisdiction to make excommunication a punishment to perhaps lapsed Catholic legislators or those with no real relation to the Roman Catholic parishes where they reside?

Yes

The legislators are not obtaining abortions but instead proposing national laws that might make the medical procedure more regularized. . . According to Pope Benedict’s logic those who work in the hospitals are subject to this church penalty?

The Churches laws and penalties apply to every Catholic, practicing or not, in every situation. Except those who are forced against their will to do or not do something. Anyone who helps someone else obtain an abortion, by voting for laws allowing it, by participating in the process (driving them to the clinic, registering them at the clinic), is subject to the excommunication.

 

[otjm]

The great majority of theologians would agree that there have only been two times in the history of the Church that a pope has spoken “ex cathedra”; Mary’s Immaculate Conception, and Mary’s Assumption. Popes don’t walk around speaking “ex cathedra”. Further, it has to do with pronouncements on doctrine, not opinions about Canon Law.

The normal proceedure for declaring an individual excommunicated seems by and large to be done by the local bishop; it may be done by Rome, and most of the time it is not done automatically and suddenly, but after some period of time and counseling.

There is more than one way to get oneself excommunicated; some are automatic upon a certain act; others not. There seems to be a lot more interest in “justice” than “mercy”, a “see, you got yours!” attitude. Which is not to defend what the legislators who have proposed and passed abortion laws have done in the least; but it seems to mirror the attitude in some people towards capital punishment.

There is more than one purpose to excommunication; one is to protect the members of the Church from one who has separated themself from the Church by acts. Another is to push the person who is excommunicated to reconcilliation (under the assumption that one rightly would want to be a member of the Church) by making it clear that their act has removed them from the Church definitvely.

It seems that a number of people sitting on the sidelines want condemnation and judgement almost more than they want reconcillitation.

 

[PhilipCal]

The great majority of theologians would agree that there have only been two times in the history of the Church that a pope has spoken “ex cathedra”; Mary’s Immaculate Conception, and Mary’s Assumption. Popes don’t walk around speaking “ex cathedra”. Further, it has to do with pronouncements on doctrine, not opinions about Canon Law.

The normal proceedure for declaring an individual excommunicated seems by and large to be done by the local bishop; it may be done by Rome, and most of the time it is not done automatically and suddenly, but after some period of time and counseling.

There is more than one way to get oneself excommunicated; some are automatic upon a certain act; others not. There seems to be a lot more interest in “justice” than “mercy”, a “see, you got yours!” attitude. Which is not to defend what the legislators who have proposed and passed abortion laws have done in the least; but it seems to mirror the attitude in some people towards capital punishment.

There is more than one purpose to excommunication; one is to protect the members of the Church from one who has separated themself from the Church by acts. Another is to push the person who is excommunicated to reconcilliation (under the assumption that one rightly would want to be a member of the Church) by making it clear that their act has removed them from the Church definitvely.

It seems that a number of people sitting on the sidelines want condemnation and judgement almost more than they want reconcillitation.

Canon Law mentiones two types of ex-communication.
1). Latae Sententiae
2), Ferendae Sententiae.
My spelling may not be 100% correct. Basically, if you procure,have, perform, or assist in an abortion, you incur excommunication #1, which is really a fancy way of saying “Automatic”. In other words, the ex-communication is incurred by the simple performance of the forbidden act.

Re: Papal Infallibility. The Holy Father just doesn’t wake up one morning and decide to make an infallible pronouncement before noon. The doctrine has only been exercised twice in the last 160 odd years. Pope Pius IX in Regard to the Immaculate Conception of Mary. In 1950 Pope Pius XII proclaimed the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. These were ex-cathedra (from the chair) proclamations.