Exodus 20:4,5

[Truth_Seeker123]

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Anyone is welcome to discuss these two scriptures.

 

[Ceil-1]

Mine says the following:

“**You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them.” **

We are to worship God, not His creation.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Discuss?

Ok, let’s. First of all “graven images”. Would that include statues like Michaelangelo’s David? Paintings like Monet’s Waterlillies? How about the statue of liberty? All of these are ‘images’.

Ah. But we don’t ‘bow down’ to them. But then again. . .does ‘bow down’ mean that bowing is always and only an example of worship? I don’t think so. In many cultures a bow is a sign of respect. While that culture may still use bowing (or profound bowing) in its worship, it would make a distinction in **unless the bow was specifically understood as indicating it was in worship of whatever the bow was directed at, it would not be considered worship.

**Moving on then. . .the most important thing is apparently that in the context of the scripture, the norm then of the particular people was to ‘bow down’ in front of idols.

Now, suppose the people still worshipped the idols but thought they could hide it by not bowing down? Suppose they just ‘stood tall’ yet worshipped the idols in their hearts? Do you think God would say, "Oh well, so long as they aren’t bowing down, they’re **OK? " **I don’t think so, do you?

The reciprocal of this, of course, is that suppose people are bowing down, but they’re doing so not in worship, but in respect (see above and culture). Do you really think that God is going to say, “I know they aren’t worshipping any idols, but mercy me, they are bowing down. So even though they aren’t worshipping anyone but Me, they’re at fault?” Again, **I don’t think so.
**
Now, I’ll go out on a limb here and predict that you bring up this passage as an indictment against Catholics and statues (though curiously I’ll bet you won’t say a blessed thing about Orthodox and icons). . .and you’ll ‘posit’ that Catholics ‘worship graven images and idols’. . .

Even though no Catholic ever imagines that the statue is A. God, or equivalent to God in any way. B. Worthy of worship in the sense of that worship which is for God alone.

Saints (who are represented by statues, just as we ‘living people’ can be represented by photographs or paintings or even if we’re lucky enough to have scultptor friends, by statues) are worthy of respect. Culturally speaking, Catholics (as must cultured persons throughout history have done) will signify that respect with some sort of bow. Heck, even Protestants like our President have signifying respect for a foreign leader by bowing! I hope you don’t think the President is idolizing the leader of China, do you? I’m sure you realize, "he is only showing respect; he doesn’t think the leader of China is God.’

I simply can’t understand why a person would be able to assume that the President is only showing respect to another person can’t do the same with regard to a Catholic.

It’s not like we Catholics keep our ‘practices’ to ourselves, you know. We’re right up there and out front with our teachings on abortion, divorce, sin, heaven, hell, the Real Presence, the Immaculate Conception etc. We aren’t afraid to look ‘strange’ and we aren’t shy about defending the above.

So if we really did worship statues as idols etc., you can be darn certain that not only would we **admit it, **we’d give reason after reason to **support it. **

But we certainly would not **say that we do not do something which in actual fact we do. **

If Catholics say that they do not worship a statue as a god, then they do not. If they did, they would (I certainly would) tell you. . .

I’m not ashamed of my Catholic beliefs and practices and I will defend them with my life. However, if people come around and accuse me of doing things which I do NOT do, and never have, I will likewise defend my honor which is impugned by this continued insistence on falsehood and refusal to accept my (or any Catholic’s) word as being truth.

If you’re going to accuse me of wrongdoing, for God’s sake accuse me of something I really do wrong, instead of falsely accusing me of something I don’t do, and never have. . .

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Are you saying that it is ok to worship people or anything else as long as it is not apart of God’s creation?

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Discuss?

Ok, let’s. First of all “graven images”. Would that include statues like Michaelangelo’s David? Paintings like Monet’s Waterlillies? How about the statue of liberty? All of these are ‘images’.

Ah. But we don’t ‘bow down’ to them. But then again. . .does ‘bow down’ mean that bowing is always and only an example of worship? I don’t think so. In many cultures a bow is a sign of respect. While that culture may still use bowing (or profound bowing) in its worship, it would make a distinction in **unless the bow was specifically understood as indicating it was in worship of whatever the bow was directed at, it would not be considered worship.

**Moving on then. . .the most important thing is apparently that in the context of the scripture, the norm then of the particular people was to ‘bow down’ in front of idols.

Now, suppose the people still worshipped the idols but thought they could hide it by not bowing down? Suppose they just ‘stood tall’ yet worshipped the idols in their hearts? Do you think God would say, "Oh well, so long as they aren’t bowing down, they’re **OK? " **I don’t think so, do you?

The reciprocal of this, of course, is that suppose people are bowing down, but they’re doing so not in worship, but in respect (see above and culture). Do you really think that God is going to say, “I know they aren’t worshipping any idols, but mercy me, they are bowing down. So even though they aren’t worshipping anyone but Me, they’re at fault?” Again, **I don’t think so.
**
Now, I’ll go out on a limb here and predict that you bring up this passage as an indictment against Catholics and statues (though curiously I’ll bet you won’t say a blessed thing about Orthodox and icons). . .and you’ll ‘posit’ that Catholics ‘worship graven images and idols’. . .

Even though no Catholic ever imagines that the statue is A. God, or equivalent to God in any way. B. Worthy of worship in the sense of that worship which is for God alone.

Saints (who are represented by statues, just as we ‘living people’ can be represented by photographs or paintings or even if we’re lucky enough to have scultptor friends, by statues) are worthy of respect. Culturally speaking, Catholics (as must cultured persons throughout history have done) will signify that respect with some sort of bow. Heck, even Protestants like our President have signifying respect for a foreign leader by bowing! I hope you don’t think the President is idolizing the leader of China, do you? I’m sure you realize, "he is only showing respect; he doesn’t think the leader of China is God.’

I simply can’t understand why a person would be able to assume that the President is only showing respect to another person can’t do the same with regard to a Catholic.

It’s not like we Catholics keep our ‘practices’ to ourselves, you know. We’re right up there and out front with our teachings on abortion, divorce, sin, heaven, hell, the Real Presence, the Immaculate Conception etc. We aren’t afraid to look ‘strange’ and we aren’t shy about defending the above.

So if we really did worship statues as idols etc., you can be darn certain that not only would we **admit it, **we’d give reason after reason to **support it. **

But we certainly would not **say that we do not do something which in actual fact we do. **

If Catholics say that they do not worship a statue as a god, then they do not. If they did, they would (I certainly would) tell you. . .

I’m not ashamed of my Catholic beliefs and practices and I will defend them with my life. However, if people come around and accuse me of doing things which I do NOT do, and never have, I will likewise defend my honor which is impugned by this continued insistence on falsehood and refusal to accept my (or any Catholic’s) word as being truth.

If you’re going to accuse me of wrongdoing, for God’s sake accuse me of something I really do wrong, instead of falsely accusing me of something I don’t do, and never have. . .

I simply posted two scriptures from the Bible that I read and believe in. I said that it was open for discussion. Not once did I accuse anyone of doing anything. I’m sorry if you feel that way. I follow the Bible. If you do not, that’s fine. It’s your choice, but please do not accuse me of accusing you when I did nothing of the sort.

 

[heathernoel]

Tantum, You took the bait!!! LOL. Awesome explanation!

Those that want to believe we worship statues, saints, Mary…well, we can’t change your minds, can we? We don’t worship them!

Do you keep pictures of your friends and family in the house? Is there an heirloom that means the world to you that you take out from time to time and admire?

 

[Ceil-1]

You know, I had answered the poster. Did anyone wait for a reply to see where the OP wanted to take it?

Oh, no. Some of us just have to hog up all the space, and put their fifty dollars’ worth in. Barrelling in like gangbusters, shooting at both hips. It is getting so old. We all know how intelligent you all are by now, those of you with ten thousand posts. Give some of the rest of us a chance.

 

[heathernoel]

I am removing my response because I am Gobsmacked.

 

[Luke65]

“The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God… He sets aside the first to establish the second.” (Hebrews 7:18-19, 10:9)

“By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13)

The Law of Moses was “set aside”. We are not under the Law of Moses. And nowhere in the New Testament will you find a ban on images. And of course not, we wouldn’t be able to have any images! Can you imagine that? Don’t you realize that God knows the end from the beginning?

 

[imkingdad]

“The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God… He sets aside the first to establish the second.” (Hebrews 7:18-19, 10:9)

“By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13)

The Law of Moses was “set aside”. We are not under the Law of Moses. And nowhere in the New Testament will you find a ban on images. And of course not, we wouldn’t be able to have any images! Can you imagine that? Don’t you realize that God knows the end from the beginning?

---

Well Put! allow me to add that we can also bring into play Deut. Ch 5, the Decalogue as Presented by Moses. from which we draw the “10 Commandments”
(also note that back then there were no punctuation marks and that the division of these Commandments in both Exodus & Deut, were of a somewhat subjective manner)

This website has a nice article on the two Decalogues
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403fea3.asp

This can provide additional insight & historical understanding to all. Enjoy!

Lastly that Exodus Ban On anythings would include a cross with or without Christ,
Images & pictures of Christ which can be found just about everywhere. Certainly an image isn’t a God. But a mere representation, a helpful reminder, perhaps a window into what we actually believe & worship. A means of drawing us closer to God, Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. Goodness even the Bible uses Imagery when it
speaks of the Holy Spirit descending from Heaven as a dove. One might therefore
surmise that the Bible is contributing to a fuller understanding of those Exodus & Deut. Passages.

 

[workingman]

I am not exactly sure where the OP wants to go with what he quoted but assuming it would be about statuary in the Church. Why then would instructions be given as so in Exodus 25:10-22 and 37:1-9 involve such ornate designs and statuary.

Exodus 25:10-22; 10 Frame an ark of setim wood, the length whereof shall be of two cubits and a half: the breadth, a cubit and a half: the height, likewise, a cubit and a half.

7 “The ephod and the rational”… The ephod was the high priest’s upper vestment; and the rational his breastplate, in which were twelve gems, etc.

11 And thou shalt overlay it with the purest gold within and without: and over it thou shalt make a golden crown round about: 12 And four golden rings, which thou shall put at the four corners of the ark: let two rings be on the one side, and two on the other. 13 Thou shalt make bars also of setim wood, and shalt overlay them with gold. 14 And thou shalt put them in through the rings that are in the sides of the ark, that it may be carried on them. 15 And they shall be always in the rings, neither shall they at any time be drawn out of them.

16 And thou shalt put in the ark the testimony which I will give thee. 17 Thou shalt make also a propitiatory of the purest gold: the length thereof shall be two cubits and a half, and the breadth a cubit and a half. 18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. 20 Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered.

17 “A propitiatory”… a covering for the ark: called a propitiatory, or mercy seat, because the Lord, who was supposed to sit there upon the wings of the cherubims, with the ark for his footstool, from thence shewed mercy. It is also called the oracle, ver. 18 and 20; because from thence God gave his orders and his answers.

21 In which thou shalt put the testimony that I will give thee. 22 Thence will I give orders, and will speak to thee over the propitiatory, and from the midst of the two cherubims, which shall be upon the ark of the testimony, all things which I will command the children of Israel by thee.

Exodus 37:1-9; 1 And Beseleel made also the ark of setim wood: it was two cubits and a half in length, and a cubit and a half in breadth, and the height was of one cubit and a half: and he overlaid it with the purest gold within and without. 2 And he made to it a crown of gold round about, 3 Casting four rings of gold at the four corners thereof: two rings in one side, and two in the other. 4 And he made bars of setim wood, which he overlaid with gold, 5 And he put them into the rings that were at the sides of the ark to carry it.

6 He made also the propitiatory, that is, the oracle, of the purest gold, two cubits and a half in length, and a cubit and a half in breadth. 7 Two cherubims also of beaten gold, which he set on the two sides of the propitiatory: 8 One cherub in the top of one side, and the other cherub in the top of the other side: two cherubims at the two ends of the propitiatory, 9 Spreading their wings, and covering the propitiatory, and looking one towards the other, and towards it.

Like I said though I am assuming what the OP is after.

 

[uekyvi]

I accept with information:Certainly an image isn’t a God. But a mere representation, a helpful reminder, perhaps a window into what we actually believe & worship. A means of drawing us closer to God, Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. Goodness even the Bible uses Imagery when it
speaks of the Holy Spirit descending from Heaven as a dove.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Anyone is welcome to discuss these two scriptures.

This is a very interesting Thread, with many assumptions and quick judgments of the OP’s intentions–intentions which were not identified. Yet, I can see how the Catholic Forum Members might assume this quote is somehow aimed at the statues and icons in the Catholic Church.

Most of Christendom uses some type of “graven image.” Iconography is very common. Through the years I have attempted to abandon iconography. I found it is almost impossible to abandon all “graven images” and “icons.” I do continue to try.

I have heard many Protestants speak disparagingly about the statues in Catholic Churches --calling them “idols.” As the Protestant speaks against the Catholic statues, he/she forgets the cross necklace they are wearing–also a graven image. Then there is the Jesus fish–also very common among Protestants.

On an Easter Sunday (a number of years ago,) I was sitting in a Protestant Church service with my son. A large wooden cross had been erected on stage for the service. There was a sort of reenactment on stage, during the service. At one point, a man on stage knelt before the cross. My son leaned over and whispered to me, “Mom, isn’t he kneeling before a graven image?” Tough question. The man was literally kneeling before a cross; and the cross was literally a graven image-an image created by man. The question is, did that make it wrong?

I think this is an issue to cause us all to reflect upon the words of Scripture. However, I would hope that God judges the intentions of the heart.

Anna