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FightingFat
Guest
Can anyone help me to explain these verses to a fundamentalist?
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Della
Guest
If I hadn’t been a Pentecostalist at one time and read these verses with that mind set I would have no idea as a cradle Catholic what the heck I was supposed to explain.
First off, I would explain that the whole of the Bible is the witness to God’s plan of salvation in Christ and his Church and not a random proof-text of any preconceived notions they might have or had foisted on them by people with nothing better to do with their time than try to find verses they can twist to make it appear the Catholic Church is a non-Christian cult.
The keys to there verses are as follows:
1 Timothy 4: 1-4: Here anti-Catholics are trying to make a case that the celibate priesthood and days of fasting are not Christian but of pagan origin and therefore wrong. Nonsense! These are disciplines only and not doctrine or dogma and no one in the Church claims that people shouldn’t get married and have children. Indeed, large Catholic families used to be so common that if anyone had more than 4 kids they were automatically asked if they were Catholic. And even Paul fasted and kept some of the rituals of the Jewish faith when it suited him, so this is truly nonsense.
2 Timothy 3:1-7: The “form of godliness” thing is meant to attack the liturgy, as if those who celebrate them and assist in them are only going through the motions with no idea what true worship is. Nonsense! The Mass is all about worshiping God in Christ. The disposition of anyone’s heart is not for Fundamentalists to judge, not even in their own churches in which I have seen people fake spirituality just to be accepted.
Jeremiah 44:13-27: With this one they are trying to say that the title “queen of heaven” refers to the Blessed Virgin Mary and supposed “Mary worship” in the Church. Nonsense! Catholics do not worship Mary, but we do honor her more than any other holy person besides Jesus and for good reason. This reference to the “queen of heaven” in this passage is to a goddess worshiped in the OT. The only similarity been her and the Virgin Mary is the title “queen of heaven”, which isn’t even a doctrine of the Church but an approved pious devotion.
First off, I would explain that the whole of the Bible is the witness to God’s plan of salvation in Christ and his Church and not a random proof-text of any preconceived notions they might have or had foisted on them by people with nothing better to do with their time than try to find verses they can twist to make it appear the Catholic Church is a non-Christian cult.
The keys to there verses are as follows:
1 Timothy 4: 1-4: Here anti-Catholics are trying to make a case that the celibate priesthood and days of fasting are not Christian but of pagan origin and therefore wrong. Nonsense! These are disciplines only and not doctrine or dogma and no one in the Church claims that people shouldn’t get married and have children. Indeed, large Catholic families used to be so common that if anyone had more than 4 kids they were automatically asked if they were Catholic. And even Paul fasted and kept some of the rituals of the Jewish faith when it suited him, so this is truly nonsense.
2 Timothy 3:1-7: The “form of godliness” thing is meant to attack the liturgy, as if those who celebrate them and assist in them are only going through the motions with no idea what true worship is. Nonsense! The Mass is all about worshiping God in Christ. The disposition of anyone’s heart is not for Fundamentalists to judge, not even in their own churches in which I have seen people fake spirituality just to be accepted.
Jeremiah 44:13-27: With this one they are trying to say that the title “queen of heaven” refers to the Blessed Virgin Mary and supposed “Mary worship” in the Church. Nonsense! Catholics do not worship Mary, but we do honor her more than any other holy person besides Jesus and for good reason. This reference to the “queen of heaven” in this passage is to a goddess worshiped in the OT. The only similarity been her and the Virgin Mary is the title “queen of heaven”, which isn’t even a doctrine of the Church but an approved pious devotion.
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BayCityRickL
Guest
Yes, or unless you had read Karl Keating’s CATHOLICISM AND FUNDAMENTALISM. I’m about half way through that book. Perhaps if Della hasn’t covered this point, Keating would assure us that the Bible was not written to disparage Catholics!
I’ve just read through Karl’s chapter where he quotes Card. Newman as saying that a lot of pagan practices may have come into the Church, but these have been liberated from their pagan motivations, and given an exclusive emphasis on Jesus Christ. The former attachment has been superceded.
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Della
Guest
For those who believe these verses do disparage the Catholic Church, they don’t care who wrote the Bible or why. They think it was written especially for them–to be interpreted as their whim takes them. And I think I did cover the point Keating makes when I wrote: “First off, I would explain that the whole of the Bible is the witness to God’s plan of salvation in Christ and his Church…”
Yes, but that’s because many pagan practices are born of the very basic human desire for ritual and order. G. K. Chesterton wrote that in many religions the rituals look very much the same but it is in their teachings that they differ dramatically.
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trogiah
Guest
I would say you could explain these verses to anyone by focusing on the following part of your quote
"because ye have sinned against the Lord, and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord, nor walked in his law"
Because of this all the bad things happen.
What God requires is that we hear His voice and keep his commandments. If we burn incense while saying the rosary and live our lives listening to the voice of the Lord then we will receive the reward of God’s kingdom. If we burn incense while saying the rosary and don’t listen to the voice of the Lord then we will not receive the reward of God’s kingdom.
Whether or not we burn incense and say the rosary, what matters is whether or not we hear the voice of the Lord and keep his commandments.
peace
Jim
"because ye have sinned against the Lord, and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord, nor walked in his law"
Because of this all the bad things happen.
What God requires is that we hear His voice and keep his commandments. If we burn incense while saying the rosary and live our lives listening to the voice of the Lord then we will receive the reward of God’s kingdom. If we burn incense while saying the rosary and don’t listen to the voice of the Lord then we will not receive the reward of God’s kingdom.
Whether or not we burn incense and say the rosary, what matters is whether or not we hear the voice of the Lord and keep his commandments.
peace
Jim
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Klm
Guest
Hi! Coming from a fundamentalist/evangelical background, I have some thoughts to offer. In the first set of verses, I’m not quite sure what the debate is about. Is the point about being forbidded to marry, in which case, according to the fundamentalist viewpoint priestly celibacy is wrong, or is it that eating meat is forbidden, in which case vegitarians are wrong? In any case, marriage isn’t forbidden. It is considered a vocation, equal to the vocation of holy orders. Those called to the vocation of holy orders are asked to freely - and I stress the word freely - and voluntary remain celebate in accord with what St. Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 7, where he writes: “I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how me may please his wife, and he is divided.” St. Paul also, earlier in the chapter makes the point that each of us is called to our station in life. And some are called to the sacrifice of celibacy.
In the second verse quoted for 2 Timothy, I think the point that, at least the pentacostal denominations like the Assemblies of God, which I was a part of, make is that because of the liturgy of the church, it is by defination dead. This is due, at least in part, to a lack of knowledge of what a liturgical mass is like. Most have never even been into a Catholic church or seen a mass, therefore they are going on suppositions instead of actual first hand experience. I have been to masses that are very similar to a service in any nondenominational or Assembly of God church. The latest worship songs sung, the clapping and raised hands, all of that. In my church, the mass is more of a high mass style. But not at all dead. There is a sense of the ancient about it - you could almost imagine St. Peter or St. Paul following the same liturgy. I think the point is that God is present and touches us in many way. In the “loud”, if you will, mass God speaks through the celebration aspects of his nature. In the “quiet” mass, through his “still small voice”. Neither is worng. Just different.
In the Jeremiah passage, it’s important to remember God isn’ opposed to incense and the like. He’s opposed to idol worship. In the Old Testament, in Exodus, when he’s giving the instructions for the worship of Isreal, he specifically tells them how to make the incense he wants used, among other details. Jeremiah wasn’t comdemning icense. He was condemning the idol worship that was going on in Isreal at the time. And the phrase “queen of heaven” referred to one of the dieties they were worshipping. The reason we refer to Mary as Queen of Heaven is because she gave birth to the King of Kings. Which makes her the Queen Mother - to put it in terms that we are all familiar with. In human royalty, when a woman gives birth to the ruler, she becomes a queen.
Anyway those are my thoughts.
Kris
In the second verse quoted for 2 Timothy, I think the point that, at least the pentacostal denominations like the Assemblies of God, which I was a part of, make is that because of the liturgy of the church, it is by defination dead. This is due, at least in part, to a lack of knowledge of what a liturgical mass is like. Most have never even been into a Catholic church or seen a mass, therefore they are going on suppositions instead of actual first hand experience. I have been to masses that are very similar to a service in any nondenominational or Assembly of God church. The latest worship songs sung, the clapping and raised hands, all of that. In my church, the mass is more of a high mass style. But not at all dead. There is a sense of the ancient about it - you could almost imagine St. Peter or St. Paul following the same liturgy. I think the point is that God is present and touches us in many way. In the “loud”, if you will, mass God speaks through the celebration aspects of his nature. In the “quiet” mass, through his “still small voice”. Neither is worng. Just different.
In the Jeremiah passage, it’s important to remember God isn’ opposed to incense and the like. He’s opposed to idol worship. In the Old Testament, in Exodus, when he’s giving the instructions for the worship of Isreal, he specifically tells them how to make the incense he wants used, among other details. Jeremiah wasn’t comdemning icense. He was condemning the idol worship that was going on in Isreal at the time. And the phrase “queen of heaven” referred to one of the dieties they were worshipping. The reason we refer to Mary as Queen of Heaven is because she gave birth to the King of Kings. Which makes her the Queen Mother - to put it in terms that we are all familiar with. In human royalty, when a woman gives birth to the ruler, she becomes a queen.
Anyway those are my thoughts.
Kris
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tjmiller
Guest
I heartily enjoy New Testament exegesis, esp. using the Greek - but would it be possible to *narrow down * the scope of the OP’s question?
As posted, I can’t really help, inasmuch as I’ve no clue precisely where to start…
As posted, I can’t really help, inasmuch as I’ve no clue precisely where to start…
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FightingFat
Guest
I wish I could but it is as asked…I came to you guys because I didn’t really know where to start!! You’ve all helped loads, thanks!!
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
saidly, people like the ones you are dealing with, I have not figured out their theory of knowledge. I like turning the topic back to Jesus and show that Catholics and protestants have the same Jesus.
The gospel is defined in I Cor 14:3-4 “according to the scriptures”.
Ask them to show, where Catholics do not believe in Jesus, and what our Lord did.
The gospel is defined in I Cor 14:3-4 “according to the scriptures”.
Ask them to show, where Catholics do not believe in Jesus, and what our Lord did.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Daniel Marsh:
The two great changes I’ve noticed are the return of evolution as something for Fundamentalists to bother about - Barr considered that it was ceasing to be of much importance when he was writing - and the return of Catholic Fundamentalism: which is not quite the same in kind as the Protestant variety, but is recognisably similar.
It seems that the book is out of print, and that’s a pity, because it really is quite outstanding. ##
There is a very perceptive analysis of their theory of knowledge in James Barr’s book “Fundamentalism”.
Barr was writing primarily about Protestant Fundamentalism in England, and the book is 25 years old - but there is very little in the Fundamentalism one finds on the Net now, that requires any correction of his remarks.The two great changes I’ve noticed are the return of evolution as something for Fundamentalists to bother about - Barr considered that it was ceasing to be of much importance when he was writing - and the return of Catholic Fundamentalism: which is not quite the same in kind as the Protestant variety, but is recognisably similar.
It seems that the book is out of print, and that’s a pity, because it really is quite outstanding. ##
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