Explaining these BoM verses concerning Polygamy

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A question for the LDS here, How do you explain these verses in the BoM. I know my interpretation I see it as condemning the practice in the OT and shows how we are to treat the issue personally.

Jacob 2:24 says, “Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.”

Jacob 2:27 says, “Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord; For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none.”

Any insight how Joseph Smith justified polygamy during his time when the BoM has these verses would be appreciative.
 
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blueadept:
A question for the LDS here, How do you explain these verses in the BoM. I know my interpretation I see it as condemning the practice in the OT and shows how we are to treat the issue personally.

Jacob 2:24 says, “Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.”

Jacob 2:27 says, “Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord; For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none.”

Any insight how Joseph Smith justified polygamy during his time when the BoM has these verses would be appreciative.
Mormons will tell you that God changes laws for different times and situations. They will say that God permitted polygamy in the Old Testament. In the verse above that condemns David and Solomon for having multiple wives and concubines, they will probably say that those two specific cases were ones in which God did not approve this for them, but that God did approve it for others at other times. They believe new revelation can change such laws, which was the case for their revelation approving polygamy and the subsequent revelation suspending it.
 
Actually the LDS scriptures use David and Solomon as the examples of polygamy being righteous.

D&C 132 :

*38 David also received amany• wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.
*

You see the LDS believe that polygamy must be directed by God through the prophet. Only the prophet can authorize plural marriages so he gets to pick who gets to engage in this practice and with whom. Joseph Smith abused this horribly and Brigham Young wasn’t much better. They both taught that in Heaven the “exalted” men who achieve the highest degree of celestial glory will all be polygamist. If they didn’t get the chance to take plural wives on earth they will get them in heaven. Faithful, worthy single women (or women whose husbands didn’t qualify) will be given to these men as their plural wives.
 
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blueadept:
A question for the LDS here, How do you explain these verses in the BoM. I know my interpretation I see it as condemning the practice in the OT and shows how we are to treat the issue personally.

Jacob 2:24 says, “Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.”

Jacob 2:27 says, “Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord; For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none.”

Any insight how Joseph Smith justified polygamy during his time when the BoM has these verses would be appreciative.
If you read a little further Jacob explains:

Jacob2:

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

amgid
 
Mormons think God commanded Joseph Smith to engage in polygamy. Emma Smith thought otherwise. I can’t seem to find the LDS scripture “commands” Joseph to take other wives. D&C 132 just tells him it’s allowed.

…hmmm that would mean his actions still contradict the BoM. (not to mention the original book of comandments) Maybe Emma was right about him and he shouldn’t have been seducing teenage girls.
 
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majick275:
Mormons think God commanded Joseph Smith to engage in polygamy. Emma Smith thought otherwise. I can’t seem to find the LDS scripture “commands” Joseph to take other wives. D&C 132 just tells him it’s allowed.

…hmmm that would mean his actions still contradict the BoM. (not to mention the original book of comandments) Maybe Emma was right about him and he shouldn’t have been seducing teenage girls.
First of all, what makes you think that every private commandment God gave to Joseph Smith must be published in the Doctrine and Covenants? It would be a private matter between him and the Lord. Secondly, as it happens, there is indeed a revelation in the Doctrine and Covenants indicating that Joseph was commanded by the Lord to marry many wives:

D&C 132:

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
amgid
 
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amgid:
If you read a little further Jacob explains:

Jacob2:

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

amgid
So are you saying that polygamy was allowed in the early years of Mormonism in order to “raise the seed”, because there were more women than men in Utah?
 
If it’s not in the standard works and it can’t be supported by what is in them then it can’t be doctrine right?

So at the time that Joseph was leading the LDS church in the practice of polygamy (even though it was being publicly denied) there should be a canonized revelation commanding the people to practice polygamy. We are still waiting to see this. What we have is a “secret” revelation (section 132) that wasn’t published until years after the fact that still only “allows” for this. This revelation commands Emma to accept Josephs Polygamy but nowhere does it command Joseph to engage in it. This section certainly seems to be a “private commandment” to Emma. The D&C is FULL of “private commandments” to numerous individuals. These all seem to be very self serving for Joseph. (wives, land,money, power, etc.)

BTW

*D&C 132 :
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave• unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed•, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold• in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal• lives in the eternal worlds.*

This seems to have been another false prophecy as Emma did NOT accept Josephs polygamy and yet she lived a long and happy life while Joseph was shot. Joseph was making lots of enemies there at the end because he just couldn’t keep his hands of poeple’s young daughters. (partridge, kimball, rigdon, etc. all sorely tested by JS “revelations” that he was supposed to have them as wives) The people were outraged at his scandalous behavior and were intending to use the newspaper to publicly call him to repentance. (web search nauvoo expositor and see the photocopies) but he had the paper destroyed and abused his authority as a member of the local government to avoid justice until finally a mob delivered their own version of it.
 
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amgid:
D&C 132:

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
amgid
Interesting that this “revelation” was received shortly after Emma’s discovery of 16 year-old Fanny Alger’s pregnancy by Joseph without benefit of marriage. Neither Joseph nor Fanny were “virtuous and pure”, unless the Mormons have redefined those terms as well.

Here is a link about little Fanny:
wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm

Notice that Joseph and Fanny were never married, though many consider Fanny to be Joseph’s first “plural wife”. When Emma sent Fanny away, Fanny married another man.
 
This exactly what we are warned about in the Bible.

*2 Peter 2:

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
Code:
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them into gloomy dungeons** to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[c] 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature[d] and despise authority.
**
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
Code:
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e] 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[f]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
This appears to be such an accurate description of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both.*
 
D&C 132 :
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave• unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed•, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
Why was God so interested in this little drama as to call Emma by name? Rather trivial wasn’t it? (except to JS :rolleyes: )
Did God change His mind here ?
Emma says, “forget it!”
JS is the one destroyed and Emma is not.
 
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amgid:
First of all, what makes you think that every private commandment God gave to Joseph Smith must be published in the Doctrine and Covenants? It would be a private matter between him and the Lord. Secondly, as it happens, there is indeed a revelation in the Doctrine and Covenants indicating that Joseph was commanded by the Lord to marry many wives:

D&C 132:

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

amgid
Or there is the possibility that Joseph Smith introduced polygamy on his own and then invented a threatening revelation to force Emma to accept Joseph’s new wives when she confronted him about it. No matter how you slice it, Joseph having multiple wives is an embarrassment to the LDS church, which is why its members are so uncomfortable talking about it. Deep inside I think they know its wrong but can’t bring themselves to find fault with anything done by their founding prophet or his successor. To do so would challenge the very foundations of their religion, which is a place most fear to tread.
 
I would like to hear the biblical evidence LDS use in support of their position that God permitted polygamy in the Old Testament. I know it happenend, but what makes them think that it was instituted by God? Usually polygamy seemed to get its biblical practioners into serious trouble.
 
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blueadept:
So are you saying that polygamy was allowed in the early years of Mormonism in order to “raise the seed”, because there were more women than men in Utah?
No. You had asked a question about certain verses in the book of Jacob, and I showed you how you can find the answer in its context. Why the Lord commanded the LDS to practice polygamy at this time is a different question entirely.

amgid
 
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majick275:
If it’s not in the standard works and it can’t be supported by what is in them then it can’t be doctrine right?..
Your posts against LDS have now become so overtly biased and one sided that they have become self-destructive. No response is required.

amgid
 
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catsrus:
Why was God so interested in this little drama as to call Emma by name? Rather trivial wasn’t it? (except to JS )
That was a private revelation addressed to Joseph Smith. It was not intended originally for publication. Joseph Smith received many private revelations which were not published.
Did God change His mind here?
Emma says, “forget it!”
JS is the one destroyed and Emma is not.
Neither of them was destroyed. Joseph was martyred for the truth, as many ancient prophets and Apostles had been. When the Lord told Emma that she would be destroyed, it did not mean physically destroyed. It meant she risked loosing her salvation. Whether she did or not we have no way of knowing. God is also forgiving and merciful.

amgid
 
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Chris-WA:
Or there is the possibility that Joseph Smith introduced polygamy on his own and then invented a threatening revelation to force Emma to accept Joseph’s new wives when she confronted him about it.
That may be a “possibility,” but certainly not the “truth”. I do not accept for one moment that that is a correct explanation of events.
No matter how you slice it, Joseph having multiple wives is an embarrassment to the LDS church, which is why its members are so uncomfortable talking about it.
I don’t accept that at all. I don’t know which members you are referring to, but it certainly does not apply to me. I am neither embarrassed by it, nor uncomfortable to talk about it, because I know that it is the truth, and God had commanded him to do it.
Deep inside I think they know its wrong but can’t bring themselves to find fault with anything done by their founding prophet or his successor. To do so would challenge the very foundations of their religion, which is a place most fear to tread.
Again, you couldn’t be more wrong. It certainly does not apply to me.
I would like to hear the biblical evidence LDS use in support of their position that God permitted polygamy in the Old Testament. I know it happenend, but what makes them think that it was instituted by God?
Polygamy was practiced by all the OT patriarch and many prophets, who were holy and righteous men. We cannot assume that they all practiced it without the approval, if not the commandment of God. Abraham, for example, had two wives, Sarah and Hagar. God not only made special promises to him through his son Isaac, born to Sarah, but also to his son Ishmael, born to Hagar:

Genesis 16:

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Thus God acknowledges the validity of his marriage to Hagar. Furthermore, the Bible states that Abraham had many concubines besides his two wives:

Genesis 25:

6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
These concubines were apparently taken in order to “preserve seed” of Abraham, because God had promised him that his seed should number as the stars of heaven for multitude. There are many indigenous peoples in that region, who are neither Jews nor Arabs, but who claim descent from Abraham. Polygamy was also allowed under the law of Moses:

Deuteronomy 21:

15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:

16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
This means that polygamy was also practiced among the Jews at the time of Christ too; but the Lord never condemned it. In fact, polygamy was commonly practiced in ancient times among all people, the Gentiles as well as the Jews; but the NT never condemns it. Indeed, St. Paul even tacitly allows it!

1 Timothy 3:

1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
This suggests that it was possible for a church member at that time to have more than one wife. But Paul thinks that if he is going to become a bishop, it would be a good idea if he had only one!—the implication being that it wouldn’t be a big problem if he had more than one, provided the other conditions were fulfilled!

(Continued in the next post…)

amgid
 
(Continued from the previous post…)

Returning to the OT, there are passages suggesting that the Lord approved of the practice:

2 Samuel 12:

7 And Nathan said to David, … Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; …
Usually polygamy seemed to get its biblical practioners into serious trouble.
I am not sure what you are referring to here. If you mean the altercations between Sarah and Hagar, that is a bit of family squabble which occurs in all families. If you mean the troubles that David and Solomon got themselves into, that was because they broke other commandments of God. Moses commanded the house of Israel concerning their future king:

Deuteronomy 17:

16 But he {the future king} shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.

17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
This doesn’t say that the future king shouldn’t have more than wife; it says that he shouldn’t carry it to excess. Solomon broke this commandment. He had 1000 wives and concubines, and they did “turn his heart away” (see 1 Kings 11:1-11). David also sinned in relation to his wives. He committed adultery with a married woman, and then had her husband murdered in order to marry his wife.

God had also commanded Israel not to intermarry with the Gentiles, least their wives turn their hearts away to idolatry; but Solomon broke this commandment (see Nehemiah 13:25-26). In 1 Kings 11:1, 8; when it says that Solomon married “strange wives” and “strange women,” by “strange” is meant “stranger,” i.e. “foreign”. He married many gentile women, and they led him to idolatry, and that proved his undoing. But polygamy, whenever it was practiced according to the commandment of God, was approved of God.

amgid
 
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amgid:
Your posts against LDS have now become so overtly biased and one sided that they have become self-destructive. No response is required.

amgid
Yet they seem to include irrefutable logic. I have continued to state facts with verifiable references. You continue to make unsupported statements.

The BoM clearly states that Polygamy is wrong. Your verse in Jacob can only be used to claim that God can command exceptions to this rule for the purpose of “raising up seed” to him.

The D&C appears to contradict this by claiming that polygamy is fine. (granted it places the “keys” to this in the hands of the LDS prophet) NOWHERE does it “command” anyone to enter ino it. No canonized LDS scripture does. We then have numerous addresses to the LDS from their prophet claiming that it’s “required” to reach the highest level of exaltation. ( I understand that you view these aas meaningless because they are not canonized) Later GAs claimed that it is NOT required. (however, their statements aren’t canonized either) So what we are left with is the confusing “doctrinal position” that polygamy is evil unless commanded by the Lord, no evidence of the Lord “commanding” anyone to enter into it, great blessings promised to those who enter into it properly, a history of it being practiced at great cost, a manifesto that doesn’t really state a clear position but effectively causes the practice to die out and great confusion over what happens in the celestial kingdom.
 
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majick275:
The BoM clearly states that Polygamy is wrong. Your verse in Jacob can only be used to claim that God can command exceptions to this rule for the purpose of “raising up seed” to him.
Thank you majick275, that’s pretty much where I was going with the disagreement and why JS needed to have a commandment for polygamy. The reasoning I’m getting from LDS is that the prophet commanded it; therefore you follow it and they don’t seem to be concerned why the prophet needs to “raise the seed” that happened during JS time.
 
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