Extra doctrines to be saved?

[Evan]

How is this an issue?

If you accept the Nicene Creed
If the Greek translates to the English to mean what the English means
If the Greek contains or lacks the preposition in

THEN

I believe in you says I believe you exist or are able to accomplish what you desire
I believe you says I believe what you teach

If the 2nd, it says you believe the Church with Christ as its head, and all that it teaches.

If the 1st, it says you believe there is such a structure and it is One, Holy, Apostolic, and Catholic, but you may still remain apart from it and disregard it’s teachings because you don’t want to be a member of the Mystical Body of Christ we call the Church.

 

[steve_b]

If you accept the Nicene Creed
If the Greek translates to the English to mean what the English means
If the Greek contains or lacks the preposition in

THEN

I believe in you, says I believe you exist or are able to accomplish what you desire
I believe you, says I believe what you teach

I disagree. They both say the same thing.

I Believe the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church
I Believe in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church

 

[Evan]

I disagree. They both say the same thing.

I Believe the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church
I Believe in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church

I disagree, they say different things.

Which of the things I listed do you think they both say.

 

[steve_b]

I disagree, they say different things.

Which of the things I listed do you think they both say.

The prayer starts out with I /we believe in… and the prayer goes on to compile a list of all that we believe .

If you believe it, you believe in it.

 

[Evan]

The prayer starts out with I /we believe in… and the prayer goes on to compile a list of all that we believe .

If you believe it, you believe in it.

I believe in Satan, but I do not believe Satan, the father of lies.

 

[steve_b]

I believe in Satan, but I do not believe Satan, the father of lies.

context context context

We’re talking about the Creed. When we say “we / I believe in”…at the beginning of the creed, that “I / we believe in” carries through the entire creed till the Amen…

 

[DavidFilmer]

You must **intellectually **submit to the dogma of the Church, even if you are not completely “sold” on a specific teaching.

That’s what I said. You must believe that your lack of faith is a fault, and try to align your beliefs with Church teaching.

But we can’t compel ourselves to believe something.

 

[Darryl_B]

Thanks for you explanation, but I would still like to hear the translation from someone familiar with Greek. I too try to keep up my Latin from High School and University, but never studied Greek.

Now that you mention it, without the Greek kai the phrase suggests that we believe that the Holy Spirit who spoke through the prophets is in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (and almost implied speaking).

 

[DavidFilmer]

our assent to everything involving our faith is not a suggestion, it’s required.

True. But belief is not required. Assent and belief are not the same thing. Assent means we agree that the Church teaches truth, even if we are having a hard time accepting it.

There is no such thing as a set of teachings that all Catholics must believe, for which disbelief or doubts would remove us from a state of Grace.

 

[bsroufek]

No Catholic has to believe any of that. Not even the Nicene Creed. …

There are no beliefs that must be held to be a Catholic. Catholics may question or doubt any (or all) Church teaching and remain in good standing. This may come as quite a surprise to many people who think Catholics are required to believe all sorts of things. In truth, we are not required to believe anything.
…
As a traditional Anglican, I was received into the Faith while still unconvinced about the Immaculate Conception and Assumption. I have since reconciled myself with Church teaching in both regards.

You’re plain wrong about Catholics not being required to believe anything to be Catholic.

When we are baptized as adults, we are asked, “Do you believe…?” on several things.

Stop spreading that error, Sir!

 

[DavidFilmer]

You’re plain wrong about Catholics not being required to believe anything to be Catholic.

When we are baptized as adults, we are asked, “Do you believe…?” on several things.

Stop spreading that error, Sir!

I was Baptized as a protestant. I was not quite an adult, but I was of the age of reason. I do not recall being asked about any particular beliefs. My protestant Baptism was later accepted by the Church, so I never made any such profession.

You seem to be saying that there are two distinct classes of Catholics: Those who were compelled to make (and thus hold) a profession of belief at Baptism, and those who were not (because they were Baptized as protestants or as Catholic infants).

Stop spreading that error, sir!

There is only one class of Catholic. And not all of them believe everything the Church teaches. When I was received, I did not personally believe Assumption (and, to a much lesser extent, Immaculate Conception). But I “believed” both Doctrines because I accepted the teaching authority of the Church. I knew the Church was right and I was wrong. That is a type of “belief,” (which the Church terms “assent”) but it is quite different from the “belief” I have today.

If there is some list of required beliefs (or even just one single required belief), I ask you to specify and cite it. Even if it is only one.

 

[fhansen]

What do you say to someone who says, “well I’m not Catholic because I don’t believe I have to believe in the ever virginity of Mary, the assumption, the Queen of Heaven, or infallibility of the Pope to be saved.” (an Anglican)

Basically it’s the Nicene Creed and nothing more for them.

We believe in those things because we come to agree with them, via grace, through which all faith comes. To some people even the Nicene creed is too narrow, too dogmatic, and yet the CC actually acknowledges that one can be saved without even being Christian, due to invincible ignorance, something many Protestants would never allow for.

 

[fisherman_carl]

What do you say to someone who says, “well I’m not Catholic because I don’t believe I have to believe in the ever virginity of Mary, the assumption, the Queen of Heaven, or infallibility of the Pope to be saved.” (an Anglican)

Basically it’s the Nicene Creed and nothing more for them.

One doesn’t have to believe that the moon is not made out of green cheese to be saved either. Something should only be believed because it is true. It is true the moon is not made out of green cheese. Therefore it should be believed that the moon is cheeseless.

It is the same with doctrine. A doctrine is only worthy of belief if it true. It doesn’t matter how much one is threatened to believe in any particular doctrine. If it is not true then it should not be believed regardless. It is the same with Protestants who say one must believe in justification by faith alone to be saved. If justification by faith alone is true then it is worthy of belief. However, if it is not true then it doesn’t matter how much they threaten you it should not be believed.

The argument the person makes against belief is twofold. First is the argument against quantity of beliefs. That is the minimum amount of belief required. It is not an intelligent argument. It a minimalist approach. It does not seek truth beyond its minimalist set of beliefs. It would be like refusing to believe in apple trees because you live in Antarctica and have never seen one. You don’t believe in apple trees because you can survive on fish and seal meat and have no need for apples. Still such a stance of refusing to belief in apple trees does nothing to tell us if apple trees in fact exist or not. Not to mention that such a belief could be detrimental to optimal health since apples are good for you.

Second is the argument against authority. Now consider the case Of Mary’s perpetual virginity. It was not an official doctrine until recently. But now that it is it becomes a truth claim for the believer. It becomes a required belief for the faithful. That is For those who believe the Holy Spirit is guiding the church must then believe the Holy Spirit would not lead her into incorrect doctrines. If any doctrine is proven false then the entire church is suspect and we could not trust her. So to say you believe in all the doctrines of the church is to say you believe the church has been divinely inspired as an agent of truth. To say otherwise is to say God would allow his church to go into error. If that is the case then all of us are on shakey ground.

So to conclude I would not argue with her about what is the minimum belief for salvation. Certainly belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity is not a major article of faith like the Resurrection. However, I would invite her into the fullness of truth and the security of the church built by Jesus on the foundation of the apostles and prophets.

 

[steve_b]

I was Baptized as a protestant. I was not quite an adult, but I was of the age of reason. I do not recall being asked about any particular beliefs. My protestant Baptism was later accepted by the Church, so I never made any such profession.

If there is some list of required beliefs (or even just one single required belief), I ask you to specify and cite it. Even if it is only one.

The Church won’t rebaptise, because a Trinitarian formula baptism is a one time sacrament. Even if done by a non Catholic. But baptism is only a beginning.

Have you not been asked at mass particularly during the Easter season to renew your baptismal promises?

Celebrant: Do you reject Satan?
Response: I do.
Celebrant: And all his works?
Response: I do.
Celebrant: And all his empty promises?
Response: I do.
Celebrant: Do you believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth?
Response: I do.
Celebrant: Do you believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, Who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
Response: I do.
Celebrant: Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?
Response: I do.

True. But belief is not required. Assent and belief are not the same thing. Assent means we agree that the Church teaches truth, even if we are having a hard time accepting it.

When you are asked do you “believe”, and you say I do, that’s a statement of Faith. Assent to what the Church teaches is an extension of that faith.

 

[bsroufek]

I was Baptized as a protestant. I was not quite an adult, but I was of the age of reason. I do not recall being asked about any particular beliefs. My protestant Baptism was later accepted by the Church, so I never made any such profession.

You seem to be saying that there are two distinct classes of Catholics: Those who were compelled to make (and thus hold) a profession of belief at Baptism, and those who were not (because they were Baptized as protestants or as Catholic infants).

Stop spreading that error, sir!

There is only one class of Catholic. And not all of them believe everything the Church teaches. When I was received, I did not personally believe Assumption (and, to a much lesser extent, Immaculate Conception). But I “believed” both Doctrines because I accepted the teaching authority of the Church. I knew the Church was right and I was wrong. That is a type of “belief,” (which the Church terms “assent”) but it is quite different from the “belief” I have today.

If there is some list of required beliefs (or even just one single required belief), I ask you to specify and cite it. Even if it is only one.

I specifically remember, among several, this one: “Do you believe everything the Catholic Church teaches?” I’m not lying, this was asked of Catecumens prior to Baptism.