"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" and Native Americans

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For those of you who take a strict view on “No Salvation Outside the Church”, what would you say about the Native Americans who lived and died in the Americas before other people showed up, let alone the Church.

Since no one was here to evangelize or baptize, are all those who lived and died before people got here in hell?
 
Is the “strict view” really incompatible with the salvation of non-evangelized peoples?
 
Since the Church has never pronounced ANY person in hell, and since not only native Americans but people in China, Japan, Korean, subSaharan Africa, Polynesia, to name only a few places as well as your ‘Native Americans’ not to mention all people from the first humans to those who died before Christ’s death and resurrection would not have had ‘people to evangelize or baptize, what do YOU think the answer is?

A person who through no fault of his or her own has never learned of the Church or been baptized can be saved through the Church by virtue of being, as a human being, imperfectly united to Christ as a human being, and so, if they had KNOWN of Him would have indeed chosen His offer of salvation and thus be saved through a ‘baptism of desire’ as they are indeed part of Christ’s Church even though they do not know it at the time they live. This is by Christ’s mercy. However, now that we do have the gospel message, it is better for both us and for all people that we try our best to make Christ known to them so that they have the opportunity of knowing and loving Him while they are still here on this earth as well.
 
You’re answer is great.

I just struggle to think God would condem someone to hell who was never told about Christ or his church.
 
Make no mistake, they are still in danger of condemnation. Hence why it is important to evangelize to make sure we save their souls and quench their sinful practices.
 
I never said a person was saved by being ignorant. I said a person could be saved through the Church IN SPITE OF being ignorant.
 
And if I’m a native in the Americas in the year 300? I won’t and can’t encounter a Christian. Just not an option. Period.
 
But you can still follow your conscience. If your war chief tells you that you and your brothers must go out and genocide the opposing tribe you could follow your conscience and choose not to go through with the genocide. Man always has the courage to follow his conscience.

If the local Shaman tells you that you must sacrifice your first born son to whatever Pagan god they worship, you always have the choice to say no.
 
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The thing is, nothing that I said implied anything about invincible ignorance and I was very careful to not put in that ‘they were just good people’, etc. I thought that I made that very point by emphasizing that they were members of the Church imperfectly who, on being aware (as you say) of God’s salvation would have chosen it, i.e., if they had had the opportunity of knowing Christ would have become baptized Christians. Especially with regard to the millions who were born and died before our Lord walked this earth.
 
Then struggle no more. It has been the constant teaching of Christ’s Church that we are judged by the light that GOD has given us even before Christ came. St. Paul writes about this here:

Romans 2:10 But glory and honor and peace are for all who do what is good: the Jew first, and also the Greek. Romans 2:11 For there is no favoritism with God. Romans 2:12 For whoever had sinned without the law, will perish without the law. And whoever had sinned in the law, will be judged by the law. Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but rather it is the doers of the law who shall be justified. Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature those things which are of the law, such persons, not having the law, are a law unto themselves. 2:15 For they reveal the work of the law written in their hearts, while their conscience renders testimony about them, and their thoughts within themselves also accuse or even defend them, 2:16) unto the day when God shall judge the hidden things of men, through Jesus Christ, according to my Gospel.

So since salvation is accomplished always by Jesus Christ and the Church is His body. It logically follows that salvation can only come from the Church. Not any church though, but the one with the authority given to it by it’s very founder Jesus the Christ himself.
This is why it is important to evangelize everyone as we are “safer” inside the Church rather than outside. If the Church was not needed or important in the process of salvation Jesus would not have wasted HIS precious time here on Earth founding one would HE?
Peace!
 
From the Baltimore Catechism;

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?

A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:

1.(1) Has been validly baptized;

2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and

3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the CatholicChurch to be the true Church?

A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.

 
Certain Protestants used the example in the OP to prove that Christ did not die for all or offer all salvation. St. Robert Bellarmine answered them like this:

St. Robert Bellarmine, De Gratis et Libero Arbitrio, lib. 2, cap. 8
This argument only proves that not all people receive the help they need to believe and be converted immediately. It does not, however, prove that some people are deprived, absolutely speaking, of sufficient help for salvation. For the pagans to whom the Gospel has not yet been preached, can know from His creatures that God exists; then they can be stimulated by God, through His preventing grace, to believe in God, that He exists and that He is the rewarder of those who seek Him: and from such faith, they can be inspired, under the guidance and help of God, to pray and give alms and in this way obtain from God a still greater light of faith, which God will communicate to them, either by Himself or through angels or through men.
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Faith and charity can join a person to Church in a manner sufficient for salvation, even if they do not have visible, social unity.

The necessary faith is faith in Christ.

From the Catechism:
The Necessity of Faith

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43
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The Catechism also sums up what St. Robert says above, noting that, for those in good conscience seeking to follow the truth, “in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him.” (CCC 848).

It’s especially good to remember that this may even happen only at the “eleventh hour” (cf. Matt. 20:6), that is, near the moments of death, and therefore not be outwardly manifested.

Finally, it is important to acknowledge the Lord’s words about the fewness of the saved (“many are called, but few are chosen”). Sin can be an impediment to the grace of faith and so many will not receive this grace, sadly.
 
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Well, not with that attitude, you won’t…are you a 300 AD American, or a 300 AD Americant?
 
twf said:
And if I’m a native in the Americas in the year 300? I won’t and can’t encounter a Christian. Just not an option. Period.
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True, while they may have not received the Gospel, they did receive the Natural Law and can still cooperate with it. God wrote the natural law into our hearts.

God can make exceptions for those who follow His Natural Law and did not receive the Gospel at no fault of his/her own.
 
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Well, eventually we did convert to Christianity. You’re mistaking that for this Feeneyism - Wikipedia. Keeping in mind that my ancestry from the old world also contained a lot of pagans , such as Hindus and traditional Germanic and Celtic religions…( though I do have some Jewish ancestry), you could make that same argument about people from the old world before christianisation. I don’t remember who said it, but we are bound by the sacraments, God is Not.
 
Miiiils said:
Since no one was here to evangelize or baptize, are all those who lived and died before people got here in hell?
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They had the natural law written in their hearts so depends how each lived his life. Like The Imitation of Christ says: in the end, we are judged on our love. How many got saved, we don’t know, that is up to God.
 
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