Faith alone.

[latin_rite]

Hi i was having a chat with a Non catholic Christian about the difference between catholic and non catholic beliefs. I replied to one of his claims with this

   So you're saying that we only need faith? We don't need to follow the laws laid down by God? So as far as you're concerned we can do anything we want but its ok cause we have faith? This may be a surprise to you and other non catholic Christians. Catholics follow God because of faith, love gratitude etc and not out of guilt. That whole guilt trip bullsh*t thing is a line preached by many ex Catholics who had a bad up binging . Well when I say other non Catholics I don't mean just a few. the vast majority of non Catholics I know are quiet tolerant and understanding in the fact not everyone believes as they do, just a select arrogant minority seem to have a misunderstanding.

I quiet like the saying…" a religion that demands nothing means nothing’
And yes Catholics are Christian. We are the first Christians. Maybe deep down that’s where the hatred and envy comes from.

And he replied

Romans 3:22The righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:

And to another question i answered

We don’t think that the Pope is the only person that is close to God. In fact we don’t think he is closer to God than any other deeply relgious person.
And yes we do call Mary Queen of the universe and praise her highly. I was gonna say at least you didn’t say we worship her. But you implied it in you second paragraph. If you listen to the prayers that Catholics say involving Mary its asking her to pray for us. That to any but the most ignorant would suggest to them that we don’t think she has special powers. That if she want anything from God she has to do what we do and pray for it.

He replied

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. and Romans 3:31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Any ideas?

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Hi i was having a chat with a Non catholic Christian about the difference between catholic and non catholic beliefs. I replied to one of his claims with this

And he replied

And to another question i answered

He replied

Any ideas?

The devil cites scripture for his purpose

In the first few chapters of Romans, Paul is reprimanding Jews who felt themselves somehow spiritually superior to Gentiles because they had been circumcised and followed the Law, as in Mosaic Law. Paul is trying to tell them that Jewish converts were no greater than Gentile converts, that they had fallen equally short of God’s grace regardless of their origins.

Not only is this person taking Paul out of context, but using a translation that is nearly impossible for “modern” people to decipher.

 

[Safe_Eagle]

It’s helpful if you clarify some terms with your protestant friend. One important one is the faith and what we mean by that. Let’s look at some criticle beliefs: Baptismal regeneration how does he stand? Luther believed in it. How about infant baptism? It’s neither supported or condemed in scripture. How about the Lords supper? How about speaking in tonges? How about salvation? Can you lose it? How about the perpetual virginity of Mary? Luther believed in it too. The Faith, embodies proper belief in these very important issues and much more.

This Faith is an embodiment of proper teaching and belief. It was how Christ appropriated salvation to us.

It’s helpful to ask your friend why he believes in certain criticle issues. Ask him to support it. In all charity. Your goal isn’t to win the argument but to put forth the Catholic position. Remember no man is called unless God calls him. If he’s incredulous it’s better to walk away.

 

[Fidelis]

Your friend doesn’t seem inclined to directly answer your questions, instead answering with Scripture verse as if they directly answered your questions, which they do not. In this way, however, he hopes you are so uncomprehending of Scripture, that you’ll take his citations at face value. Don’t let him get away with it–make him explain.

The first “answer” of his is not an answer. For one thing it says nothing about faith ALONE. The only place in Scripture where we find these two words together, in fact, is in James where it says we are NOT saved by faith alone (James 2:24).

Secondly, “to believe” as Paul discusses it in this verse in Romans and elsewhere doesn’t mean mere intellectual acceptance or “acceptingJesusasyour personalLordandSaviour.” It implies “the obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5; 16:26)–that is, we must obey him. Even Jesus, after enunciating the favorite Protestant “faith alone” passage John 3:16, in that same chapter goes on to define what it means to believe:

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him. (John 3:36)

As for your friend’s second “reply,” without some kind of elaboration by him, I have no idea what he is trying to prove in response to your question. It looks like he’s just throwing a verse out there. Don’t be afraid to ask him “What is that verse supposed to prove?”

 

[rwoehmke]

You all will find as one of the posters said above, it is important to define terms as many non-Catholics attribute meanings to words that are at variance with what a Catholic means by the same word. When the Catholic Church and Lutheran Church held discussions on justification, agreement turned on the fact that both were describing the very same concept but using different language/wording.

Warning: I do not recall which segment of the Lutheran Church it was and there are differences between them.

 

[Pax]

I have never had anyone deal adequately with Ephesians 2:8-10 from a Protestant perspective. The passage says:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

This passage is the perfect bridge between Paul’s teaching and James 2:24-26 which says, "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

It is clear from Eph 2:8-10 and elsewhere that we are saved by grace and that our initial justification is pure gift and that we have done nothing to earn it. Likewise the passage makes it clear that faith, which is a gift by way of grace, is essential. Furthermore, the passage makes an important point about works. Paul tells us that at the point of our justification we become a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works. Moreover, these works were prepared by the Father in “advance” of our justification.

The works are nothing less than the work of the Father’s hands in our hearts, minds, souls, and bodies. The grace of God is what saves us. God’s grace provides the gift of faith, and God’s grace provides the works that are to be done in justification. If we do not have the works our faith is meaningless.

James says that faith without works is dead. This would seem to be completely compatible with Ephesians 2:10. Likewise, James uses a powerful analogy of the body and spirit. Think about this analogy and press this point with your non-Catholic friend.

Here is another suggestion. Point out that Paul typically uses the example of cirumcision in saying that we are saved by faith rather than works. In this regard we need to look at some of the other connections Paul makes vis-a-vis circumcision. The following passages are particularly instructive:

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

Galatians 6:15
For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

So what really matters is a new creation and faith working through love. Moreover, Eph 2:10 tells us that we are a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared in advance of our justification.

Try to get your friend to really think about all this and don’t let him leave this set of verses without attempting to thoroughly answer them.

 

[Jim_Baur]

What does faith hear?

Faith hears love.

Or, love is heard by faith.

Also, according to Ephesains 6: 14 and I Thessalonians 5: 8, righteousness is composed of love and faith.

We are saved by God’s love poured into our new hearts.

It is with our new hearts and God’s gift of faith that we hear God’s love.

Or, love is heard by faith in our new heart.

All that I have mentioned is GRACE.

 

[GuanYuWarGod]

Even the Devil himself believes in God, believes that Jesus is God, believes his most hated enemy died for the sake of man and where is our little friend now?

 

[banjo]

latin_rite,

 

[banjo]

latin_rite,

You may want to point out that St. Paul said to the Romans that through Jesus Christ we have received “grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations.”
If we are to be obedient to God we must follow his commandment of love and if we love someone, we must do something for that person (cf. Jas 2:14-17; Gal 5:6; Lk 10:25-37).
You might also direct his/her attention to Rm 2:6, “for he will render to every man according to his works.” (cf. 2 Cor 5:10).

 

[Jim_Baur]

Nice idea, banjo.

I will make good use of it.

 

[Bishopite]

Hi i was having a chat with a Non catholic Christian about the difference between catholic and non catholic beliefs. I replied to one of his claims with this

And he replied

And to another question i answered

He replied

Any ideas?

Many Protestants like to stick to the book of Romans on justification because they think it bolsters their position. However, the Bible is a cohesive whole and just sticking to one book is being ignorant of the scriptures.
In Romans 1:5 and 16:26 Paul uses those two portions the first and last chapters of that book as sort of book ends by saying “the obedience of faith.” Faith isn’t a mere mental assent only and those who believe that are antinomians (anti law of Christ or anti keeping the moral law of Christ). And remember we are not technically bound by the law or the ten commandments, but we ARE bound by the righteousness behind them, so that we can’t just say we have faith and act otherwise outside the moral law of God, which is immutable. Cain killed Abel without the “law” in place, yet he committed a morally grave offense because he didn’t obey the moral law of God. Romans 2:6 says “For he [God] will render to every man according to his works”
We will be judged by what we DO or don’t DO.
This is also taught in Mt 25:34-40 where God will separate the righteous from the damned in verses 41-46. The difference between the two groups were that one group did things for themselves for their own vain glory. The other did the works of Christ NOT for themselves or expecting that God owed them anything but because of love. Also Gal 5:6, Phil 2:12 and James 2:24 says that we are justified “not by faith alone” are others. Sorry gotta go.

 

[Jim_Baur]

Post seven is really helpful.

It hits the mark.

Faith cannot save unless it hears or accepts God’s love.

Also, righteousness or justification has two parts: love and faith.

Also, love is in charge of faith, it is first and Jesus said so.

Love is in charge of faith as the soul is in charge of the body.

The soul and body come into existence at the same time, but the soul is first in the sense that it controls the body.

Love comes first as the soul comes first.

Faith comes by hearing, and it hears love.

 

[banjo]

Nice idea, banjo.

I will make good use of it.

Thanks, Jim…if you are referring to ‘if we love someone, we must do something for that person’ I can’t take credit for it…I first heard it stated that way by an African priest…such a simple statement, such an obvious truth.

 

[latin_rite]

thanks everyone. Your answers were a great help.