Faith and works debate

[guanophore]

it seems, having now quoted Trent, that my initial argument is still true.

catholic: justification = faith plus works
prot: faith = justification plus works

I know you are not using this language in a derogatory fashion but a visitor to this thread may not, so I urge you to observe the forum rules.

I think it might be better said as “faith, working through love”. Gal 5:6-7
6 For in Christ Jesus … faith working through love.

It is not so much “faith PLUS works” as it is faith THAT works. It is the quality of the faith that is saving. Saving faith produces works. We are justified by grace, THROUGH faith. that same grace that justifies us is the faith that produces good works in and through us.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Where many evangelicals will stop reading at v. 9, Catholics continue into v. 10. The grace that saves us through faith is there to make us His workmanship, and to make us walk in the good deeds He has prepared. We are not saved by works, but neither is our salvation separated from good works.

but as i noted in the last point above, one sinning also causes a lack of justification. so if you add that to the mix.

catholic: justification = faith plus works plus lack of sin
prot: faith = justification plus works plus lack of sin

Part of those “good works” are the spiritual disciplines that help us to resist sin, and to immediately confess our sins so that we can return to a justified state.

but then again, if you approach it with the analogy of the plant as I did, you might be able to rearrainge it more.

catholic: justification plus works = faith plus lack of sin (or more precisely, you probably can’t say it in an equation, cause lack of sin doesn’t cause works, per se)
prot: faith = justification plus works plus lack of faith/]quote]

In many ways it does. When we are absorbed in the good deeds that the Father has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them, we are strengthened against temptation, and continue to grow in Christ, bearing good fruit, and separated from the desires of the flesh that produce sin.

Gal 5:16-18
6 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. 1

Walking in the good deeds of Christ, empowered by the Holy Spirit, prevents us from gratifying the desires of the flesh.
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the idea again, is that justification could be said to be complete, but as a plant grows, it adds justfication to hte completed justified organism.

so as i was getting at, and contrary to what i initially said, it ould be argued from catholics “we are justified, and we increase in justification”

the only real difference then would be what sin does to the jsutification.

Yes, I think this is true, according to your analogy. Those who separate justification from sanctification do so, in part, to assign a different meaning to that state. The Apostles taught that if we do not follow His commandments, we are not “in Christ”. After the Reformation, the idea was developed that a person could be in right relationship with God ( “saved”) even if they were living a life of sin.