Faith and Works

[aball1035]

What are the “works” one must do to be saved? Is it just sacraments like baptism or others?

 

[NotWorthy]

Its different for each of us. What gifts have you been given? If you read the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, you’ll get a general idea of what Christ expects of you during your daily life. But a reading of the Parable of the Talents will show that those who receive much, more will be expected from.

In short, there is no “minimum daily requirement” of faith and works that will get one into heaven.

 

[aball1035]

Its different for each of us. What gifts have you been given? If you read the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, you’ll get a general idea of what Christ expects of you during your daily life. But a reading of the Parable of the Talents will show that those who receive much, more will be expected from.

In short, there is no “minimum daily requirement” of faith and works that will get one into heaven.

I thought people in a state of sanctifying grace and who are baptized get to Heaven. How do we know if we’re up to par on the expectations?

 

[NotWorthy]

I thought people in a state of sanctifying grace and who are baptized get to Heaven.

What did I say that disagrees with your thoughts? Although good works don’t “earn Sanctifying Grace”, they do please God and He is a God of Justice, isn’t He? In other words, doesn’t He reward His sheep?

But more more compelling is the knowledge that the sin of omission is a sin nonetheless. If I have the capability to help someone, and simply walk away because I don’t want to be bothered, wouldn’t that place me among the goats?

How do we know if we’re up to par on the expectations?

How do we know if we’re up to par? In my thinking, If I know I’m up to par, then I’ve still got a long way to go to get to heaven. It’s in humbleness that we best approach God, not in “confidence that we are up to par”.

Personally, I’ve gone through a 5 year awakening, where I’ve slowly and methodically grown closer to God. And yet, the closer I get to God (in my mind, at least), the more I feel I’d like to do for Him. There’s not a sense of “I’m doing what necessary to get to heaven”. Instead there’s a sense of, “Wow, I could be doing so much more”.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

What are the “works” one must do to be saved? Is it just sacraments like baptism or others?

The “Faith Versus Works” controversy is a “false dichotomy.” It is a “great deal of sound and fury signifying nothing.”

Faith is a work – an act of the Will in response to grace. Works are faith in motion. There is true equivalency.

 

[Cachonga]

Peter Dawson:

Faith is a work – an act of the Will in response to grace. Works are faith in motion. There is true equivalency.

Then what does James mean when he says “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17)? How about James 2:22 (“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”)? And James 2:26 (“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also”)?

In John 17:4, Jesus says, “I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.” Notice that Jesus did the works His Father gave Him to do. God gives us the works, and it’s through the Holy Spirit that we discover and perform the works God has given us (for example, Peter healed a beggar on the way to the Temple; Peter preaches the Word to the gentiles; Philip opens the Scriptures to the eunuch from Ethiopia; Paul has scales fall off his eyes, gets baptized and joins the Faith; etc…).

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Then what does James mean when he says “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17)? How about James 2:22 (“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”)? And James 2:26 (“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also”)?

In John 17:4, Jesus says, “I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.” Notice that Jesus did the works His Father gave Him to do. God gives us the works, and it’s through the Holy Spirit that we discover and perform the works God has given us (for example, Peter healed a beggar on the way to the Temple; Peter preaches the Word to the gentiles; Philip opens the Scriptures to the eunuch from Ethiopia; Paul has scales fall off his eyes, gets baptized and joins the Faith; etc…).

Despite the fact that there is true equivalency, by custom we refer to the works which we can see NOT as “faith,” but rather as “works.” So, though there is equivalency, we see two different words, and one word frequently used to the exclusion of the other.

And yet, note that James himself implies equivalency when he says that “faith” is made perfect by “works.” If “faith” and “works” are “mortally severed,” how could this be true? Again, “works” are “faith in motion.” Your works are “good works” unless they are somehow motivated by some form of fait. And faith isn’t “real” unless it is ready, willing and able to jump into action and become a work.

 

[PJM]

=aball1035;5330152]What are the “works” one must do to be saved? Is it just sacraments like baptism or others?

I can provide a general answer, but works are a personal choice, based in part on opportunity.

In general always say “YES” to God, and be chairitable. Know, practice and share our faith.Make use of the Sacraments, especially Confession and The Eucharist.

John 3: 5 "Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. "

John 20: ***21"Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” ***

Matthew 19: *** 16"And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”***

Romans 13: *** 9 “You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." ***

There ya go And its not supposed to be easy.

Love and prayers,

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Despite the fact that there is true equivalency, by custom we refer to the works which we can see NOT as “faith,” but rather as “works.” So, though there is equivalency, we see two different words, and one word frequently used to the exclusion of the other.

And yet, note that James himself implies equivalency when he says that “faith” is made perfect by “works.” If “faith” and “works” are “mortally severed,” how could this be true? Again, “works” are “faith in motion.” Your works are “good works” unless they are somehow motivated by some form of fait. And faith isn’t “real” unless it is ready, willing and able to jump into action and become a work.

I MEANT to write,

Despite the fact that there is true equivalency, by custom we refer to the works which we can see NOT as “faith,” rather than as “works.” So, though there is equivalency, we see two different words employed, and one word frequently used to the exclusion of the other.

And yet, note that James himself implies equivalency when he says that “faith” is made perfect by “works.” If “faith” and “works” are “mortally severed,” how could this be true? Again, “works” are “faith in motion.” Your works are “good works” unless they are somehow motivated by some form of fait. And faith isn’t “real” unless it is ready, willing and able to jump into action and become a work.

 

[Cachonga]

Peter Dawson:

Despite the fact that there is true equivalency, by custom we refer to the works which we can see NOT as “faith,” rather than as “works.” So, though there is equivalency, we see two different words employed, and one word frequently used to the exclusion of the other.

And yet, note that James himself implies equivalency when he says that “faith” is made perfect by “works.” If “faith” and “works” are “mortally severed,” how could this be true? Again, “works” are “faith in motion.” Your works are “good works” unless they are somehow motivated by some form of fait. And faith isn’t “real” unless it is ready, willing and able to jump into action and become a work.

Heb 11:1 says, “Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.” Where does this say anything about faith being a work? Can you do any works without faith? I would like to know what your definition of “faith” and “works” is. Do you consider them interchangeable?

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Heb 11:1 says, “Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.” Where does this say anything about faith being a work?

That doesn’t, but this does:

2 We give thanks to God always for all of you, remembering you in our prayers, unceasingly
3 calling to mind your work of faith … 1 Thessalonians 1:2-3.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Can you do any works without faith?

No good occurs on Earth unless it is motivated by grace. So, for a work to be a “good work” – what we mean to be an example of “works” in the great faith/works debate – there HAS TO BE grace down there.

Probably, God does not send grace which is dead to the issue of faith. And, in some sense, some kind of crude “faith” occurs when the person says “Yes, come in” to the grace knocking at his door.

So, probably, there is no such thing as a “work,” meaning a “good work” in the faith/works debate sense, where there is not faith in some sense.

Works = faith in motion.

 

[Cbailey2]

Heb 11:1 says, “Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.” Where does this say anything about faith being a work? Can you do any works without faith? I would like to know what your definition of “faith” and “works” is. Do you consider them interchangeable?

I think Peter Dawson means that faith is, in itself, an act. It is something that people do: it requires an act of will and manifests itself in our other actions. To say that faith is just a thought, removed from works, is like saying “I think about dieting” as opposed to saying “I am dieting.” Only in one of those scenarios are you actually going to lose weight. Similarly, it is impossible for us to have faith and not have it inform our actions. One cannot say “I have faith” even as they reach for another box of Twinkies and their waist expands.

Despite the fact that we say “we have faith” or “he lost his faith,” faith isn’t really a possession, is it? It’s not a penny you find on the road, stuff into your pocket, and then discover that you dropped somewhere. Isn’t it more like love? Can I really claim to have love if it does not manifest itself in my thoughts, my words, and my actions?

His whole point, if I read him right, is that faith and works are inseparable, like living and breathing. To paraphrase you questions using this metaphor: can you breathe without living? Do you consider “living” and “breathing” interchangeable? Does that make any sense?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I think our true work is to love God and love others as we would would love be loved. This requires that we know ourselves as God sees us, though loving and truthful eyes.

Here is a quote from Thomas Merton that reflects this:

Our vocation is not simply to be, but to work together with God in the creation of our own life, our own identity, our own destiny… This means to say that we should not passively exist, but actively participate in His creative freedom, in our own lives, and in the lives of others, by choosing the truth. To put it better, we are even called to share with God the work of creating the truth of our identity. We can evade this responsibility by playing with masks, and this pleases us because it can appear at times to be a free and creative way of living. It is quite easy, it seems, to please everyone. But in the long run the cost and the sorrow come very high. To work out our own identity in God, which the Bible calls “working out our salvation,” is a labor that requires sacrifice and anguish, risk and many tears. It demands close attention to reality at every moment, and great fidelity to God as He reveals Himself, obscurely, in the mystery of each new situation.

 

[PJM]

=Peter Dawson;5332313]I MEANT to write,

Despite the fact that there is true equivalency, by custom we refer to the works which we can see NOT as “faith,” rather than as “works.” So, though there is equivalency, we see two different words employed, and one word frequently used to the exclusion of the other.

And yet, note that James himself implies equivalency when he says that “faith” is made perfect by “works.” If “faith” and “works” are “mortally severed,” how could this be true? Again, “works” are “faith in motion.” Your works are “good works” unless they are somehow motivated by some form of fait. And faith isn’t “real” unless it is ready, willing and able to jump into action and become a work.

***Heb. 6: 9 “Though we speak thus, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.” ***