Faith and Works

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Does God expect us to do good works or produce good fruit if we have faith in him.?
Now only does he expect it, we cannot do good works without faith.

"Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” Luke 18:19

Apart from God we can do nothing truely good, only through him can we do good works.

Besides, all of our good works were determined before by God for us once we found faith and trust in him.

“For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

Good point in your message Sara.
 
Some things protestants seem to have problems with when it comes to works are…
  1. Priests prescribing a certain number of Hail Marys after confession.
  2. Having to go through confirmation (this is reserved of course for those protestants that do not celebrate this sacrament).
…these are just a few issues I run into all the time at work (where I work with a horde of southern baptists.
 
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St.Curious:
Some things protestants seem to have problems with when it comes to works are…
  1. Priests prescribing a certain number of Hail Marys after confession.
  2. Having to go through confirmation (this is reserved of course for those protestants that do not celebrate this sacrament).
…these are just a few issues I run into all the time at work (where I work with a horde of southern baptists.
just tell 'em it’s conveying the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands…

🙂
 
Thing is, they don’t see these “works” as necessary because they feel that once a person is baptized at the age of reason, they are saved. And that only through the total renouncing of Christ are they damned after that point.

They don’t seem to notice any significance in the order in which Jesus said…
“Full authority in heaven and on earth has been committed to me. Go therefore to all nations and make them my disciples; baptise them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teach them to observe all that I have commanded you. I will be with you always, to the end of time.” (Matt 28:18—20 RSV)
God does not say things in any order, everything Jesus said was said that way for us to understand in that way. The apostles are told to…
  1. Go therefore to all nations.
  2. make them my disciples (which he goes on the explain in 3 & 4)
  3. baptise them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit
  4. teach them to observe all that I have commanded you.
This is done in that order for a reason. We are to go to all nations (not leaving any out). And then we are to make all disciples by baptising them (no age requirement is set here by Our Lord), and then teach them to observe all that he has commanded.

What part of “God doesn’t just say whatever whenever” do certain protestants not understand? Of course, I’m not talking about those who do baptize infants and take part in confirmation, but those who don’t (Baptists, Pentecostals, etc.)

Keep also in mind what he said last…
I will be with you always, to the end of time.
He promises his apostles to be with them to the end of all time. Through the laying on of hands this promise is further fulfilled for all of those in line with apostolic succession. For when he said this, commanded this, he commanded it of all apostles for all time. This promise he made to us all as Christians (in order for us to witness) and to all Apostles (Bishops in the description of Christ as the Church). If Christ is always with them, then how could the baptising of infants and confirmation be wrong?
 
carol marie:
This is the way I understand it… someone correct me if I’m wrong. We are saved 100% by our Faith & the grace of God. We prove we HAVE faith by our works. It’s not enough to say "I believe - and BAM! I’m saved - because the Bible says that even the demons “believe” in God. We say we love God - and we prove that by obeying Him.

Works alone don’t save us.
Faith alone doesn’t save us.
Faith as demonstated by our works is what saves us - by the Grace of God.
*The easy way to look at this is; we are all called to live a Christ-like life. If we are to act like Christ, we do what he would do right? Then we will express our faith with works as Christ did and would do. It is really that simple! If we have faith then we can’t help but to do works. Some folks think work has to be this elaborate selfless, give till it hurts thing…that is wonderful, but in reality, any thing you do that would please God is works. I am not saying, if you are inclined to go out and do wonderous works, that you shouldn’t-- You should! But, helping out your neighbor, volunteering at a soup kitchen, and even raising your children in a Christ centered home can also be considered works. We all do what we can do given our circumstances at the time we are doing it. What is important is that we do it for the glory of God and not for ourselves. The most important work we ever do in our lives may *be that one kind word that brings someone else closer to God. If you are truly sincere about your faith, you can’t help but to do works, to share of yourself, to give unto God…these things just become the natural thing to do.
 
*From another thread:

trying to reconcile:

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
James 2:24
and
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
Galatians 2:16

Response:

But the basic answer is that whenever St. Paul uses the word law he is referring to the Mosaic law, not the principles of the moral law. It gets quite a bit more complicated than that if you want to be 100% technically correct, but that ought to do unless they bring up something that forces it to go further.
In response to Lazerlike42s answer above:
  1. How do I know that James 2:24 isn’t referring to Mosaic law ?
  2. Isn’t Mosaic law a work, just like any other good work?
I’m afraid my protestant friends would think that I’m just proof texting unless I have a very solid argument in context. Thank you all. 🙂
 
Salvation is by grace. Faith and works both justify and sanctify us. They are the sign of the grace working within us.

BTW, faith is a work. That’s why it’s called, the Act of Faith.
 
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adnauseum:
You can’t deny James said it clearly: faith without works is dead.

The Catholic faith maintains that God offers you the free gift of faith through His grace. But it is our choice to accept or reject the offer. It is an act of free will.

In this view, we do nothing to merit our salvation, other than accept the gift of grace.

But James is apparently chastising or maybe motivating his congregation by pointing out that if there are no good works - feeding the poor, tending to orphans and widows -** then any claim that you have faith is worthless.**

Now, unlike protestants, we believe it is possible to lose sanctifying grace by committing moral sin. We can only regain it through absolution and penance in the sacrament of confession.

So you see, you can’t *earn *salvation through good works, but if you don’t show the works which are natural consequences of authentic faith, then your faith may not be genuine.

But you can lose salvation through disobedience.
Nice job here with the summary!👍 I am rereading the entire NT with an eye towards a few theological contorversies, and faith alone is among them.
I believe that your observation: “if there are no good works - …**then any claim that you have faith is worthless” **hits the nail on the head. For it recognizes the crucial distinction between **act-**ually having faith and the absense of a living, life-saving faith. With this distinction comes the realization that salvation by “faith alone” may actually be accurate - its just that “faith alone” no longer can include a concept of faith which is separated from its end: love.
I especially like the implication that apart from your works, your claim that you have “faith” is worthless. It follows that one knows of their own faith not only by looking “into their heart”, but by looking in the mirror of how one lives their life. Ouch!
1 John 2:3
The way that we may be sure that we know him is to…
keep the commandments" Whoever says, “I know Him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This is the way that we may know that we are in union with Him: whoever claims to abide in Him ought to live just as He lived."
1 John 3:19-24 paraphrasing:
How shall we know we belong to the Truth?
  • If our hearts do not condemn us
  • because we keep his commandments and do whatever pleases him
  • His commandment is this: Believe in the name of his Son AND love one another as he commanded us
  • Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them and the way we know he remains in us is from the Spirit that he gave us
Phil
 
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CollegeKid:
So when an evangelical gives me that oft-repeated line, “You can’t work your way into Heaven,” I should just respond, “Right, but you can work your way out.”
Would it be fair to say that in a sense, our works do contribute to our salvation?
Can I make suggestion - one Im sure most are sick of hearing? Always be able to state a conclusion in the form of a syllogism. For example:

Premise 1…Philthy likes syllogisms
Premise 2…Anyone who likes syllogisms is stupid
Conclusion: Therefore, Philthy is stupid.

All logical conclusions can be stated as such although sometimes it requires more than 1 syllogism to arrive at some final conclusion. The reason this is such a good exercise is that you can quickly and efficiently look at the argument(conclusion) some one is claiming and determine if there is some element - whether it be an erroneous premise (ie,“Anyone who likes syllogisms is stupid”) or an inappropriate application of fact- which does not, OF NECESSITY, validate the conclusion. In the example above, an invalid premise (Premise 2) forces us to regard the conclusion as opinion rather than fact. It does not, by the way, disprove the conclusion, it merely limits it to the category of “unsubstantiated” - it may be true, it may not.
The reason I brought this up is because of the manner in which you addressed your antagonists claim “you cant work your way into heaven”. Your contention that you “can work your way out” is irrelevent. I believe it’s true, but it is probably irrelevent. We need to know HOW he arrived at that conclusion (syllogism!). Then we can examine the premises which lead to it and see whether they are valid and whether the conclusion is a valid derivation from them.

Phil
 
Great posts, but I’m still not clear on how I know that James 2:24 isn’t referring to Mosaic law ? Is it basically the context and “audience” of James versus Galatians?
 
Well for one thing if it was referring to the Mosaic law there’d be a major problem because James would probably be contradicting Paul.

We also know because of the entire context of it.
Jam 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith, but does not have works? Can his faith save him?
Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister is without clothes and lacks daily food,
Jam 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you don’t give them what the body needs, what good is it?
Jam 2:17 In the same way faith, if it doesn’t have works, is dead by itself.
Jam 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works.
Jam 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe–and they shudder.
Jam 2:20 Foolish man! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless?
Jam 2:21 Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Jam 2:22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.
Jam 2:23 So the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness, and he was called God’s friend.
Jam 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Note that James mentions works first in verse 14. Then in 15-16, he mentions helping the poor. Then in verse 21 he says Abraham was justified by works when he offered his son Isaac. In other words, he equates works with obedience to God, which is what Abraham was practicing when he offered up Isaac. He also gives another example of a good work, as opposed to works of Mosaic law, in verse 25-26.

So, everytime St. Paul mentions works (usually adding “of the law”) he mentions circumcision, or food laws, or other Mosaic laws. But when St. James mentions works (without adding “of the law”), he mentions helping the poor and being obedient to God. It’s clear what each is talking about.

Additionally, think about the phrase “batting 1000.” Whenever someone today says “batting 1000,” we know that they mean the person they are talking about is having perfect success. In 2000 years, if someone finds some document that says “batting 1000,” what are they gonna think it means? They’ll probably have no idea. Now imagine what would happen if they found a copy of this post which explains what it means.

That’s what happened with “works of the law.” When the dead sea scrolls were found, some of the documents showed that the phrase “works of the law” was an expression used in the time of Jesus to refer to the Mosaic law. It was like finding this forum post.

So we know for sure that the phrase “works of the law” means the Mosaic law. But what if we never found the Dead Sea Scrolls? Well, who would be better to say what the phrase “works of the law” meant? Some German monk living in 1500? Some Protestant living in 2005? Or some fellow living in the years 100 and 200 when the phrase was still being used? Clearly the fellow that lived at the time the phrase was being used. If we look at the early Church fathers, we see that they all took Paul to be talking about the Mosaic law. I think their judgement is best.

Now your friends may point out that sometimes St. Paul simply says “works” without adding “of the law.” He’s still talking about the Mosaic law. You can see this because every time he just says works, he is still using examples like circumcision and food laws. Why does he drop the “of the law” off? Well, if I was writing an essay about George Bush, I might refer to him as “the president of the United States” a lot. But, if I just said that every time, it would get redundany and just sound bad. Paul did the same thing. He didn’t want to just sound like a broken record. Obviously that can be written of as speculation, but the fact remains that the examples St. Paul uses are always examples of Mosaic law and never examples of things like helping the poor or abstaining from sin.

In fact, St. Paul gives the strongest warnings in the New Testament about sin. My favorite is from Ephesians 5:5-6, because you can direct it at Protestants and tell them it was written just for them (well verse 6 I mean):

“For know and recognize this: no sexually immoral or impure or greedy person, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of the Messiah and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things God’s wrath is coming on the disobedient.
 
**If man was created with no free will and only a select few are selected for heaven, then the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus was pointless. If the elect were already selected, then what was the purpose or the need for Christ to die for their sins?

If man has no free will, then God could have created man with theinability to resist his grace from the very beginning. I find it inconceivable that God would select man to hell to show his love and mercy to a select few. Just how would this demonstrate his love and mercy for the elect?**

SARA

.
 
My meager thoughts:

“Faith” is often treated as if it were mere intellectual assent, and that this assent is separate from the actions that one takes based on that assent. However, this is not consistent with the Hebrew understanding of “faith”. Faith is a work, it’s something you DO rather than something you believe. For example, there was a battle where the Jews were winning as long as Moses kept his arms raised up into the air, and the text speaks of Moses arms remaining “faithful”, that is, they continued in an action. Other places use the same Hebrew word translated “faith” to describe how doorposts hold up the lintel.

“Faith”, as is explained in the Catechism, is an act of the will in which one turns toward God and away from sin; in which we decide that our intellect and will cooperate with the divine grace that God gives us to enable us to comply with the moral law; it is a free response of the human person to the initiative of God; it is a personal adherence of the whole man to the God who reveals himself.

These are all actions, things we do in obedience to God. Thus the Apostle Pauls says in Romans 1:5 "Through Him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith…"

We do not attain salvation by our own effort through works, but rather by the grace of God, may his name be forever praised, who gives all of us sufficient grace at some point in our lives to perform the work of freely responding to Him by performing the “obedience of faith”.
 
Read this parable about what happens when someone chooses not to produce good fruits with the grace they are given:

Matt. 25:14 For even as a man going into a far country, called his servants, and delivered to them his goods; 15 And to one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one, to every one according to his proper ability: and immediately he took his journey.

16 And he that had received the five talents, went his way, and traded with the same, and gained other five. 17 And in like manner he that had received the two, gained other two. 18 But he that had received the one, going his way digged into the earth, and hid his lord’s money. 19 But after a long time the lord of those servants came, and reckoned with them. 20 And he that had received the five talents coming, brought other five talents, saying: Lord, thou didst deliver to me five talents, behold I have gained other five over and above.

21 His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant, because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 22 And he also that had received the two talents came and said: Lord, thou deliveredst two talents to me: behold I have gained other two. 23 His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant: because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 24 But he that had received the one talent, came and said: Lord, I know that thou art a hard man; thou reapest where thou hast not sown, and gatherest where thou hast not strewed. 25 And being afraid I went and hid thy talent in the earth: behold here thou hast that which is thine. 26 And his lord answering, said to him: Wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sow not, and gather where I have not strewed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have committed my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received my own with usury. 28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it to him that hath ten talents. 29 For to every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound: but from him that hath not, that also which he seemeth to have shall be taken away. 30 And the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 
**Matthew15 “9”: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

“17”: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Revelations 12 “17”: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

Reve;ations 14 “12”: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev. 22 “14”: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Could these verses have anything to do with ones salvation on entering the Kingdom Of heaven???

1John 2 “4”: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Sara

. ** !
 
Faith vs works is a false dichotomy. They are the two side of the same coin. As has been pointed out, faith with out works is dead and a dead faith never saved anybody. Works with out faith is not salvific.
 
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