Faith before Grace?

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Nelka

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I heard a Protestant say that they knew a man also protestant who has now died who believed in Jesus but stated he had never been baptised. Surely this means that he never received sanctifying grace but had faith which surely can’t be right?

Would this mean that maybe he was baptised as a baby and didn’t realise, was baptised but didn’t admit it or maybe he didn’t really have faith?

I am somewhat confused.

Faith comes from Grace I thought.

Thanks.
 
I heard a Protestant say that they knew a man also protestant who has now died who believed in Jesus but stated he had never been baptised. Surely this means that he never received sanctifying grace but had faith which surely can’t be right?

Would this mean that maybe he was baptised as a baby and didn’t realise, was baptised but didn’t admit it or maybe he didn’t really have faith?

I am somewhat confused.

Faith comes from Grace I thought.

Thanks.
The thief on the cross wasn’t baptized either. There are more ways to be baptized than one. Baptism of desire, and baptism of blood being two. Hopefully a real catholic will be along to correct what I lack, but I will say that God’s grace is abundant in the world. If this man had any inclination to seek God that is a grace that can precede baptism of water. I know it did in my life. If not, there would be no converts because adults would never seek God, discover his church or be baptized. Heaven would only be available to the children of catholic parents. But Jesus taught us that He would “draw all men” to himself.

We receive grace from God through many ways. God gives us all the grace of having the option to seek him.
 
I heard a Protestant say that they knew a man also protestant who has now died who believed in Jesus but stated he had never been baptised. Surely this means that he never received sanctifying grace but had faith which surely can’t be right?

Would this mean that maybe he was baptised as a baby and didn’t realise, was baptised but didn’t admit it or maybe he didn’t really have faith?

I am somewhat confused.

Faith comes from Grace I thought.

Thanks.
Grace doesn’t only flow through the sacraments, not even according to CC teaching (someone correct me if I’m wrong). Many protestant denominations/individuals believe in “enabling” grace. This is a grace that enables an individual to choose God, it enables faith… sometimes this grace is held up vs. irresistible grace that basically forces faith.
 
Grace doesn’t only flow through the sacraments, not even according to CC teaching (someone correct me if I’m wrong). Many protestant denominations/individuals believe in “enabling” grace. This is a grace that enables an individual to choose God, it enables faith… sometimes this grace is held up vs. irresistible grace that basically forces faith.
You are correct that this is a view of some Protestants, most notoriously Presbyterians. Specifically this is the “reformed view.” I have no idea why it is called that since they claim it was also the view of the apostles. They claim the following principles:

T. Total depravity of man. This means that man’s depravity is so complete he is incapable of seeking God on his own
U. Unconditional election. This means God chose in advance those he would save and damned the rest before they were even born.
L. Limited atonement. It stands to reason (internally) that Jesus would then only die for those he intended to save
I. Irresistible grace. God is omnipotent and draws only the elect with his irresistible power. The rest may receive resistible invitations to grace but have no power from God to respond positively.
P. Perseverance of the saints. God is omnipotent and he does not quit on his elect. Whatever the temptation or season of backsliding He will ultimately prevail on their souls to endure in faith to their final glorification in the resurrection.

People who hold this view devoutly tend to see it in every chapter of the Bible but a central reference is Romans 8:28-39.

Frequently this doctrine gets simplified to OSAS but it bothers me because there is a serious pandemic of false doctrine with a lot of adherents and supported by a lot of bible twisting. That includes those who hold to OSAS but don’t actually know the reformed view. For example, Jesus tells Nicodemas, “if the son of man be lifted up, I will draw all men to myself.” The Tulip people than object that all didn’t mean all–just all the elect. The hermeneutical gymnastics wax complex and absurd.

My own view is that God saves everyone he can without violating the agency he gave us. If He could make us love Him, it would’nt be love but an abomination. So He woos us like a man with a maid and how we respond is up to us, for better or worse–like a man with a maid. I think my view is like the catholic view but I am open to correction here. To the extent we may depraved God still helps everyone have enough grace that they could choose to turn to Him. Nobody who is willing to enter by the narrow gate and walk the difficult path that lads to life is turned away and Jesus is the lamb of God who died for the sins of the world.
 
We shouldn’t try to read the man’s heart. The fact that he had intellectual faith didn’t mean that he had supernatural faith. A person could not be in a state of grace and yet have various human opinions on God which happen to be correct. Even the demons have that type of faith, as Scripture tells us.

Likewise, the Catholic Church teaches that men and women could be saved even if they’re not Baptized … so long as, amonst other things, they are not culpably ignorant of the ordinary necessity of Baptism.
 
Nelka. You asked about faith and mentioned . . .
Faith comes from Grace I thought.
You are correct.

We have a natural faith before baptism but that involves God’s prevenient grace (notice it is a “grace”).

And this GRACE is quite necessary.

I’ll try to quote the salient portion from Trent later.

God’s prevenient grace just means, “God makes the first move”.

God moves toward us, in order to allow us to move toward Him (1st John 4:19).

But this is NOT yet “faith” in the sense of SUPERNATURAL faith, hope, and charity.

It is a NECESSARY faith, but not salvific in and of itself.

We receive the SUPERNATURAL virtues when we are born again (baptized). We receive other graces too (we become “sons in the Son”).

We need the supernatural faith, hope, charity we receive at Baptism.

Does this help?

God bless.

Cathoholic
 
I heard a Protestant say that they knew a man also protestant who has now died who believed in Jesus but stated he had never been baptised. Surely this means that he never received sanctifying grace but had faith which surely can’t be right?

Would this mean that maybe he was baptised as a baby and didn’t realise, was baptised but didn’t admit it or maybe he didn’t really have faith?

I am somewhat confused.

Faith comes from Grace I thought.

Thanks.
The theological virtue of faith or the gift of faith is not necessarily caused by or is the effect of sanctifying grace. The gift of faith is certainly caused by God’s grace but it can be the effect of God’s actual grace as distinguished from sanctifying grace. In the process of conversion as when a person goes from not believing to believing and not having sanctifying grace to having sanctifying grace, God moves the intellect and will of the person by actual grace. The infusion of sanctifying grace is like the end result of the process of conversion or justification. Actual graces are transient helps and gifts from God which he is bestowing on us at all times. Sanctifying grace is a permanent and habitual disposition God bestows on the soul which makes us partakers of the divine nature. Sanctifying grace and the theological virtue of charity are lost with every mortal sin committed but not necessarily the theological virtues of faith and hope. The theological virtues of faith and hope without charity and sanctifying grace are called lifeless faith and lifeless hope. Faith and hope that worketh through charity (Galatians 5:6) is called living faith and living hope. The virtue of faith resides in the intellect and the virtues of hope and charity reside in the will.

The sacrament of baptism bestows sanctifying grace on the soul and this especially in the case of the baptism of infants. Adult converts to the catholic faith who go through a six month or so process of catechesis before they are baptized can receive the effect of baptism and probably do so in most cases prior to their actual baptism, by baptism of desire, the effect being the infusion of sanctifying grace and charity on their souls. For if these persons died before actually receiving baptism, we cannot say that they would automatically end up in hell. God is working through them already by his grace and converting them and these souls are responding to his grace. The reception of baptism in these cases of adult converts to the faith increases sanctifying grace, or if they don’t already possess it bestows it, and also bestows the spiritual character on the soul.

The supernatural grace of God is necessary for anything we do, think, or say towards our eternal salvation. Supernatural grace is traditionally divided broadly into sanctifying grace and actual grace as the CCC says.
 
I heard a Protestant say that they knew a man also protestant who has now died who believed in Jesus but stated he had never been baptised. Surely this means that he never received sanctifying grace but had faith which surely can’t be right?

Would this mean that maybe he was baptised as a baby and didn’t realise, was baptised but didn’t admit it or maybe he didn’t really have faith? I am somewhat confused. Faith comes from Grace I thought. Thanks.
If a person doesn’t know baptism is necessary through no fault of their own and desiring to do God’s will they would have a baptism of desire.

There is actual grace and habitual grace

Actual grace is when the Holy Spirit acts upon a person in order to bring them to faith, repentance and baptism. At baptism one receives habitual sanctifying grace whereby the Holy Spirit remains indwelling the person. Being born again by water and of the Spirit becoming a child of God.

The Holy Spirit remains in one as long as they don’t sin mortally. In which case they must confess for habitual grace to be restored. God gives an actual grace for one to repent and confess their mortal sins. Actual graces may come anytime God wills for encouraging a person to good works or whatever.
 
I heard a Protestant say that they knew a man also protestant who has now died who believed in Jesus but stated he had never been baptised. Surely this means that he never received sanctifying grace but had faith which surely can’t be right?

Would this mean that maybe he was baptised as a baby and didn’t realise, was baptised but didn’t admit it or maybe he didn’t really have faith? I am somewhat confused. Faith comes from Grace I thought. Thanks.
If a person doesn’t know baptism is necessary through no fault of their own and desiring to do God’s will they would have a baptism of desire.

There is actual grace and habitual grace

Actual grace is when the Holy Spirit acts upon a person in order to bring them to faith, repentance and baptism. At baptism one receives habitual sanctifying grace whereby the Holy Spirit remains indwelling the person. Being born again by water and of the Spirit becoming a child of God.

The Holy Spirit remains in one as long as they don’t sin mortally. In which case they must confess for habitual grace to be restored. God gives an actual grace for one to repent and confess their mortal sins.

We receive actual graces all the time for instance whenever we do a good work for love of God which helps us grow in sanctifying grace.
 
I knew of a lady who is a salvation
army member who is of great faith,
she died in a nursing home w/o
ever being bapitized, I underwent
a baptism “by proxy” for her, even
tho the baptist minister did not know
it, I hope that it will suffice for her
salvation. See 1 Cor. 15:29
 
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