Faith/intellect?

[DPMartin]

"Brains are not Spiritual no matter how you slice it. There are many very intelligent, capable thinkers that do not believe in a God.

The wicked love there own, and many love money more then anything.

Beauty in the created world is not Spiritual no matter how much you might admire it, or how nice it makes you feel, though yes God made it, so that you may enjoy it, but it’s not Spiritual. Again the wicked enjoy and admire the beauty in the created world."

I don’t agree. If the Creator made the natural world (including brains), and called it good, then it has spiritual significance. I think the beauty of the our world is a sacramental (based on the Psalms). The wicked may admire the created world, and in doing so, be brought closer to its Creator. They may not, but then again they may.

“The “(i.e. the ability to reason)” is your addition to what the Lord has said, not what the Lord has said. How much of the Lord your God, that is of Him do you have, or have received? If it is much, then how much is required of you? For how can you do the work of the Lord, if you have not that which He has, to do it?”

**Surely everything we have is a gift from God? Our bodies, our intellects, our very existence? Are you saying the ability to reason is not a gift from God? Logically, if everything we have is a gift from God, and we have the ability to reason, then the ability to reason is something that has been given, and the precept that something is required of those to whom something is given applies, yes? **

"Or is it that the fear of the Lord, is just that, fear of the Lord. And if it be not of His Wisdom or His Knowledge or His Understanding, how could it be respected to be intellect at all before the Lord?

How much intellect did it take for the Israelite to shake in their boots when the Lord their God spoke to them the Ten Commandments? (Ex:20)

how much intellect does it take for the mountains to shake or melt of Him. How much intellect did it take for the storm to stop when the Lord Jesus told it to? Storms don’t have brains nor do mountains."

My question to you would be why you think Jesus went around teaching, stimulating the intellects of his hearers, why we were given the Word, which requires intellect to properly interpret, and so on, if the only proper response to the Lord is fear and trembling. It says the fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom, not wisdom in its entirety. I’d agree it didn’t take much intellect for the Israelites to fear the Lord in that moment, but I think it took plenty of intellect to meditate on, implement, and truly come to appreciate the Law after it was given.

Mountains and storms are not human beings. They have not been given the same faculties as we have. Their response to the Lord is proper to their place in the created order. Sometimes our proper response is the same–to fall on our faces and say “my Lord and my God!”. Sometimes our proper response is to exercise our intellects and reflect on what that means, in order to more fully worship God.

Moscati

It is not to shut out or disregard that which you are saying, or trying to get across, as not valid or meaningless. But again; flesh is flesh and Spirit is Spirit.

Where does the Wisdom of Faith come from? You, or the Word of God in God’s Presence? As you say, Jesus taught; therefore to those who are made to receive of Him the Word of God in God’s Presence. Are we talking Faith here? Or are we talking about how nice it is to hang out on the beach in the nice warm day? By the by, the storm did do what it was made for, in the Presence of God’s Word, didn’t it?

Therefore shouldn’t it be to the Gory of God’s Reason for man, Jesus Christ, the Word of God the Light of men? Or should it be to the glory of, or according to, man’s ability to reason?

 

[Moscati]

Moscati

It is not to shut out or disregard that which you are saying, or trying to get across, as not valid or meaningless. But again; flesh is flesh and Spirit is Spirit.

Where does the Wisdom of Faith come from? You, or the Word of God in God’s Presence? As you say, Jesus taught; therefore to those who are made to receive of Him the Word of God in God’s Presence. Are we talking Faith here? Or are we talking about how nice it is to hang out on the beach in the nice warm day? By the by, the storm did do what it was made for, in the Presence of God’s Word, didn’t it?

Therefore shouldn’t it be to the Gory of God’s Reason for man, Jesus Christ, the Word of God the Light of men? Or should it be to the glory of, or according to, man’s ability to reason?

You’re setting up a false dichotomy. Wisdom comes from God. Faith comes from God. Intellect comes from God. The intellect, used properly, informs and strengthens one’s faith.

Indeed, the storm did as it should. Did you agree with my point about humanity being substantially different than anything else in the created order?

I’m having trouble with your writing style. It seems as though you’re just throwing capitalized words around, not really constructing anything coherent. Can you simplify? Or be a little more explicit?

 

[DPMartin]

You’re setting up a false dichotomy. Wisdom comes from God. Faith comes from God. Intellect comes from God. The intellect, used properly, informs and strengthens one’s faith.

Indeed, the storm did as it should. Did you agree with my point about humanity being substantially different than anything else in the created order?

I’m having trouble with your writing style. It seems as though you’re just throwing capitalized words around, not really constructing anything coherent. Can you simplify? Or be a little more explicit?

Moscati

thanks for the reply

Is this false? Does your view supercede that which the Apostle Paul has said??

1Cor:2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Are you saying that God should value foolishness? The foolishness of the natural man.

Everything made has ability to be what it is. But what is it for?

Rom:11:36: For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

The ability to run and the ability to run for are to different concepts, the ability to think (intellect) and the ability to think for are to different concepts. What’s more important, one’s ability, or the ability for?

Gen:2:7: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

But…

Gen:2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So is man still a living soul? According to the breath of God? Is not man to live by every, (not some, not most) Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God? Where did His Breath come from? Wouldn’t be His mouth? Therefore of His breath is the living soul to receive of the Word of God in order to live.

Jn:20:22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

The seed is planted into the ground and watered. But is the seed to yield to the ground, and what the ground is? Or is the ground to yield to the Instructions of Life in the seed of Life? In order bear the fruits of the Instructions of Life in the seed that is not of the ground.
If the ground does not yield to the Instructions in the seed planted then the ground is good for nothing. For it does not yield the fruits of owner’s labor. And what was the purpose of the owner purchasing the field in the first place?

Is it possible that to glorify that which is the ability of that which is made from the dust of the ground, enmity against God?

Rom:8:6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom:8:13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

If you climb strait up a mountain in a fashion that only the mentally strong can climb then you’ve done nothing but glorify yourself as one of the only or few. But if a path is established that is practical for as may as possible can go around the mountain till they get there, then for others is it done, so they can receive the same.

Sockets and wrenches of themselves are totally useless, no matter how shiny or strong they are. Unless they are purchased by the skilled mechanic, and he take them in his hand to do.

 

[Moscati]

Moscati

thanks for the reply

Is this false? Does your view supercede that which the Apostle Paul has said??

1Cor:2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Are you saying that God should value foolishness? The foolishness of the natural man.

Everything made has ability to be what it is. But what is it for?

Rom:11:36: For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

The ability to run and the ability to run for are to different concepts, the ability to think (intellect) and the ability to think for are to different concepts. What’s more important, one’s ability, or the ability for?

Gen:2:7: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

But…

Gen:2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So is man still a living soul? According to the breath of God? Is not man to live by every, (not some, not most) Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God? Where did His Breath come from? Wouldn’t be His mouth? Therefore of His breath is the living soul to receive of the Word of God in order to live.

Jn:20:22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

The seed is planted into the ground and watered. But is the seed to yield to the ground, and what the ground is? Or is the ground to yield to the Instructions of Life in the seed of Life? In order bear the fruits of the Instructions of Life in the seed that is not of the ground.
If the ground does not yield to the Instructions in the seed planted then the ground is good for nothing. For it does not yield the fruits of owner’s labor. And what was the purpose of the owner purchasing the field in the first place?

Is it possible that to glorify that which is the ability of that which is made from the dust of the ground, enmity against God?

Rom:8:6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom:8:13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

If you climb strait up a mountain in a fashion that only the mentally strong can climb then you’ve done nothing but glorify yourself as one of the only or few. But if a path is established that is practical for as may as possible can go around the mountain till they get there, then for others is it done, so they can receive the same.

Sockets and wrenches of themselves are totally useless, no matter how shiny or strong they are. Unless they are purchased by the skilled mechanic, and he take them in his hand to do.

DP, maybe I’m just too linear (I study the sciences), but the discussion is going nowhere. You jump from example to example, Scripture prooftext to prooftext, without connecting the dots. I need the dots. We can’t communicate this way.

If you have not read Pope John Paul II’s Fides et Ratio, I highly recommend it!

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Ultima Ratio

thanks for the reply

What about what a man sees or hears? Are you saying that if I be dumber then you are, that I may not have the Catholic sense? That seems to be, what is required, according to your posting.

Would that be saying that without a certain measure of predetermined intellect, then one would be of no use to the “Catholic Faith”?

There’s actually a sliding scale of IQ ratings, established by the Pontifical Academy of the Sciences.

150 or higher - Catholic

120 to 150 - Orthodox

90 to 120 - Protestant

60- 90 - Atheist

30 - 90 - Philosopher

0- 30 Second year university student.

Just kidding.

 

[DPMartin]

DP, maybe I’m just too linear (I study the sciences), but the discussion is going nowhere. You jump from example to example, Scripture prooftext to prooftext, without connecting the dots. I need the dots. We can’t communicate this way.

If you have not read Pope John Paul II’s Fides et Ratio, I highly recommend it!

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

Moscati

thanks for the reply

I can appreciate your view in that, but I was talking to you as a Catholic, on a Catholic site, not a linear thinking scientist. Linear thinking may serve well in the efforts of theories and the like to evaluate evidence.

But God made all, therefore all revolves around God’s Word, (Alpha omega beginning and end), and from what I can see linear thinking might be like a tangent that does not revolve around the existence of God therefore would never know the existence of God (if that makes sense).

To require the Truth, Way and Life to be linear in order for it to be recognized. Would not qualify.

The Truth is the Truth no matter what the Truth is. And Life does not serve the way of science, in order to be recognize by science. Life is before science. God need no one’s recognition in order to be alive. As a Catholic I’d say it’s more like the other way around.

I was only ref. “Proof text” to show in Catholic context, it’s not false. Despite any misunderstanding on my part, it’s been nice talking to you. It seems to me that Philosophy and most anything else should serve Life, not Life should fit a philosophical or scientific mold or theory.

Revelation of God does not require linear thinking, or view, to know. Nor is linear thinking, or view, required to know the God of Truth. It is foolish to think that if something does not fit in one’s view of things. Then it is not so. In Truth, if it does not fit in God’s View of things and what in His view they ought to be. Then it might discontinue to be.

again,thanks

 

[DPMartin]

There’s actually a sliding scale of IQ ratings, established by the Pontifical Academy of the Sciences.

150 or higher - Catholic

120 to 150 - Orthodox

90 to 120 - Protestant

60- 90 - Atheist

30 - 90 - Philosopher

0- 30 Second year university student.

Just kidding.

LOL, thanks for the humor, I can relate to that.