Faith without Works – The Catholic View

[Augustine3]

What does scripture say in this regard?

I’m interested to read how you interpret them and how you reached your conclusion. Looking forward to reading your answer

I hope you didn’t see my response as intending to open debate. It is the dialogue here at CAF that keeps me coming back.

Yep I sure did brother, which is why I wanted to remind everyone to keep a cool head :crutches:

God bless,

 

[Protos]

I think the biggest yet unresolved question is imputed v infused righteousness. The Joint Deaclaration on the Doctrine of justification seems to not address it.
Some of my lutheran brothers and sisters still believe that the phrase “faith and works”, and what that entails, is a point of division, in that they see that as works contributing to salvation on a footing with faith. And of course, there are Catholics who view the phrase “faith alone” as excluding the necessity of works. hence, the continuing debate here, and perhaps on a larger scale.

Jon

I have a possible solution!
How about the phrase “justified by living faith alone”?

This would exclude the common catholic objection that faith without works is dead, and it clarifies what saving faith is from a protestant perspective What do you all think?

 

[joe370]

I have a possible solution!
How about the phrase “justified by living faith alone”?

This would exclude the common catholic objection that faith without works is dead, and it clarifies what saving faith is from a protestant perspective What do you all think?

I suppose we can ask James: “You see that a person is justified by what he does** and not by faith alone.”**

As I mentioned to Jon: This particular question seems rather easy to answer. I agree with you too that we are saved by our faith in Jesus and His atoning work on the cross. However, we are obligated to do our part by picking up our cross and being there for others in need. We can have faith and still lose out on our eternal reward, as per Jesus, “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment…”

 

[JonNC]

=Augustine3;9733085]I’m interested to read how you interpret them and how you reached your conclusion. Looking forward to reading your answer

Here is what the confessions say about rewards:

Here also we add something concerning rewards and merits. We teach that rewards have been offered and promised to the works of believers. We teach that good works are meritorious, not for the remission of sins, for grace or justification (for these we obtain only by faith), but for other rewards, bodily and spiritual, in this life and after this life, because Paul 74] says, 1 Cor. 3:8: Every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labor. There will, therefore be different rewards according to different labors. But the remission of sins is alike and equal to all, just as Christ is one, and is offered freely to all who believe that for Christ’s sake their sins are remitted. Therefore the remission of sins and justification are received only by faith, and not on account of any works, as is evident in the terrors of conscience, because none of our works can be opposed to God’s wrath, as Paul clearly says, Rom. 5:1: Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom also we have access by faith, etc. 75] But because faith makes sons of God, it also makes coheirs with Christ. Therefore, because by our works we do not merit justification, through which we are made sons of God, and coheirs with Christ, we do not by our works merit eternal life; for faith obtains this, because faith justifies us and has a reconciled God. But eternal life is due the justified, according to the passage Rom. 8:30: Whom He justified, them He also glorified. 76] Paul, Eph. 6:2, commends to us the commandment concerning honoring parents, by mention of the reward which is added to that commandment, where he does not mean that obedience to parents justifies 77] us before God, but that, when it occurs in those who have been justified, it merits other great rewards. Yet God exercises His saints variously, and often defers the rewards of the righteousness of works in order that they may learn not to trust in their own righteousness, and may learn to seek the will of God rather than the rewards; as appears in Job, in Christ, and other saints. And of this, many psalms teach us, which console us against the happiness of the wicked, as Ps. 37:1: Neither be thou envious. And Christ says, Matt. 5:10: Blessed are they 78] which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. By these 79] praises of good works, believers are undoubtedly moved to do good works. Meanwhile, the doctrine of repentance is also proclaimed against the godless, whose works are wicked; and the wrath of God is displayed, 80] which He has threatened all who do not repent. We therefore praise and require good works, and show many reasons why they ought to be done.

I would also point you to the recent Lutheran / Catholic document called, “The Hope of Eternal Life”. There is an extensive discussion about particular and general judgement, and rewards, starting with paragraph 64, through I think 109.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/dialogue-with-others/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

Yep I sure did brother, which is why I wanted to remind everyone to keep a cool head :crutches:

Then my sincere apology, as I didn’t mean it that way.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I have a possible solution!
How about the phrase “justified by living faith alone”?

This would exclude the common catholic objection that faith without works is dead, and it clarifies what saving faith is from a protestant perspective What do you all think?

Its fine, but we already have a phrase we agree on, that being Galatians 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=joe370;9733065]This particular question seems rather easy to answer. I agree with you that we are saved by our faith in Jesus and His atoning work on the cross.

Yes, Joe, we are agreed.

However, we are obligated, (just as you have mentioned in other posts) to do our part by picking up our cross and being there for others in need. We can have faith and still lose out on our eternal reward, as per Jesus, “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Yes, good works are, as the Formula of Concrod says, necessity. But the confessions a quick to point out that when scripture speaks of good works, we know that works are only good (in God’s eyes) under the precondition of justification, and justification comes by grace through faith. So, when Christ says whatever you do not do for these, you do not do for Me, He is saying that there is a dead faith, not a living, saving faith, and the result is eternal loss.

I know quite a few people who insist that the CC teaches a work-based way, (to the exclusion of Jesus) to heaven, which is so silly.

I think there is enough discussion in regards to this between Lutherans and Catholics that, 1) most Lutherans do not regard Catholicism as works-based, and most Catholics do not regard Lutheranism as ignoring the importance of good works.

“You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”

So, there must be good fruits coming from the regenerate. James here is speaking to you and me - the justified, the regenerate in Him. He is speaking to us, reminding us of Christ’s call that we do His commands, do good works for the least of His children.

Jon

 

[TexanKnight]

One way I have seen it is this:

Protestant- faith= works+salvation

Catholic- failth+works= salvation

I turn to Scripture:

Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21). (Works)

“One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And Jesus replied ‘If you would enter life, keep the commandments’” (Matt. 19:16 17).(Works)

“He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him” (John 14:21). (Works)

“But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury” (Rom. 2:2 8). (Works)

“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love” (Gal. 5:4 6). (Works)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:8 10). (Works and Faith)

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:12 13). (Salvation not a given)

“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, `Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas. 2:14 24). (Works AND Faith)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Can lose your Salvation)

1 John 2:3 4 “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

 

[fhansen]

I think, from our perspective, that love is an indespensible evidence of faith. Luther’s quote about Galatians 5:6 is one I regularly use here:

does this blend well with what St. John of the Cross says?

Jon

Yes, pretty well, I think. The only differnce might be that, in Catholic theology, it’s possible for faith to exist without love while love always includes or encompasses the other virtues.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, pretty well, I think. The only differnce might be that, in Catholic theology, it’s possible for faith to exist without love while love always includes or encompasses the other virtues.

Yes, perhaps. We would say that if there is a faith without love, it is a dead faith.

Jon

 

[Godith]

Faith can exist without love? Does that mean without love for God? I can understand faith without love for others, but faith without love for God makes no sense to me.

 

[Link0126]

To my beloved Protestant brothers and sisters. We have all heard the argument about St Paul’s letter to the Romans and St James letter on the subject of faith without works. In order to help you understand the Catholic position I thought perhaps it may be worth while showing another reference from the bible, in particular the story of the repentant woman that washed Jesus’ feet with her tears. A couple of points can be made here.

We read in Luke 7:41-42 “Two people were in debt to a certain creditor; one owed five hundred days’ wages and the other owed fifty. Since they were unable to repay the debt, he forgave it for both” Obviously the one that owed five hundred days’ wages refers to the sinful woman and the fifty refers to the Pharisee. We can all agree both were unable to pay their debts to sin hence only through the merits of Jesus can their debts be waived. So no good work of their own can save their debt to sin, only by mercy will their debts be cancelled. When Jesus forgave the sinful woman he said “Your faith has saved you” Luke 7:50. How did she show her faith? Did she simply say “Jesus I believe and accept you as my personal Lord and saviour”? No, her faith was shown by her works i.e. washing Jesus feet with her tears and drying them with her hair. These are works, yet Jesus said “your faith has saved you” Jesus calls this action faith because faith is only faith when practiced through good works.

I hope that helps brothers and sisters,

God bless,

This is a great example and explanation. I will remember this one. Thanks!

 

[NeuroTypical]

Hi from a Mormon new to the forums.

I’m glad I found this thread. What I’m hearing here is not dissimilar to what I’m taught as an LDS about the relationship of faith and works. I didn’t know we were so close to Catholic thought on the matter. Although I guess I should have, because every christian who has come up to me and demanded that I say a quick prayer accepting Jesus as my savior so I can be saved, every one has been a protestant of one stripe or another (usually evangelical). When I ask them about scriptures like Matt 7:21 indicating works, they’ve always said something like “Well, all that stuff just comes naturally after you’re born of the spirit.”

If I could ask, what’s Catholicism’s take on the necessity of baptism as a required ordinance? Protestants seem all over the place on their belief.

 

[Porknpie]

Hi from a Mormon new to the forums.

I’m glad I found this thread. What I’m hearing here is not dissimilar to what I’m taught as an LDS about the relationship of faith and works. I didn’t know we were so close to Catholic thought on the matter. Although I guess I should have, because every christian who has come up to me and demanded that I say a quick prayer accepting Jesus as my savior so I can be saved, every one has been a protestant of one stripe or another (usually evangelical). When I ask them about scriptures like Matt 7:21 indicating works, they’ve always said something like “Well, all that stuff just comes naturally after you’re born of the spirit.”

If I could ask, what’s Catholicism’s take on the necessity of baptism as a required ordinance? Protestants seem all over the place on their belief.

Nero -

Here’s a tract for you to read. Suggest starting a new post as this is off topic.

catholic.com/tracts/the-necessity-of-baptism

 

[stevekehl]

To my beloved Protestant brothers and sisters. We have all heard the argument about St Paul’s letter to the Romans and St James letter on the subject of faith without works. In order to help you understand the Catholic position I thought perhaps it may be worth while showing another reference from the bible, in particular the story of the repentant woman that washed Jesus’ feet with her tears. A couple of points can be made here.

We read in Luke 7:41-42 “Two people were in debt to a certain creditor; one owed five hundred days’ wages and the other owed fifty. Since they were unable to repay the debt, he forgave it for both” Obviously the one that owed five hundred days’ wages refers to the sinful woman and the fifty refers to the Pharisee. We can all agree both were unable to pay their debts to sin hence only through the merits of Jesus can their debts be waived. So no good work of their own can save their debt to sin, only by mercy will their debts be cancelled. When Jesus forgave the sinful woman he said “Your faith has saved you” Luke 7:50. How did she show her faith? Did she simply say “Jesus I believe and accept you as my personal Lord and saviour”? No, her faith was shown by her works i.e. washing Jesus feet with her tears and drying them with her hair. These are works, yet Jesus said “your faith has saved you” Jesus calls this action faith because faith is only faith when practiced through good works.

I hope that helps brothers and sisters,

God bless,

It’s a good thing she washed Jesus feet, otherwise God would never have known about her faith. Jesus is talking about the gratitude people feel for forgiveness. The one who is forgiven the biggest debt is the most grateful. Imagine losing your job, your home about to be foreclosed on and the bank calling to say your mortgage has been paid. Not only are you grateful to keep your house, but the burden of making the payments has been lifted as well, your hope has been restored. How would you show your gratitude to the person who paid your debt? Now compare that to a friend who buys you lunch. How would your expression of gratitude to your friend differ compared to the person who paid your mortgage? This is what the parable of the two debts is about and it explains why the woman’s gesture was so dramatic. James says if you truly have faith you can’t help but show Christ’s love for others. The fruits of the spirit involve other people. I can’t show love without an object for that love, I can’t be patient unless someone is trying that patience, hermits are rarely joyful, to be kind I have to be kind to others, you get the idea. Good works are part of the Christian life, but without faith they are just community service. Good works earn you nothing toward salvation. They may earn you rewards in heaven, but you have to have faith to get there.
What about the Pharisee, he put out a big spread for Jesus, welcomed Him into his home

 

[SMA_12]

I know I’m way late to this forum, just wanted to say this discussion helped me out a ton, I quoted many of your arguments in another discussion I was having elsewhere. That is all

God bless!

 

[Carlan]

I think the biggest yet unresolved question is imputed v infused righteousness. The Joint Deaclaration on the Doctrine of justification seems to not address it.
Some of my lutheran brothers and sisters still believe that the phrase “faith and works”, and what that entails, is a point of division, in that they see that as works contributing to salvation on a footing with faith. And of course, there are Catholics who view the phrase “faith alone” as excluding the necessity of works. hence, the continuing debate here, and perhaps on a larger scale.

Jon

The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is a process of becoming holier and holier through time.
All of it is a work of infused sanctifiying grace that God performs in our hearts at Baptism through faith,
Works done in faith are the natural completion of believing in Christ.
As we trust and do God’s work He instills within us more grace so that we may become holier and so be ready to meet Him at the end of our life.
Peace, Carlan

 

[JonNC]

=Carlan;10080137]The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is a process of becoming holier and holier through time.

Lutherans would not disagree.

All of it is a work of infused sanctifiying grace that God performs in our hearts at Baptism through faith,
Works done in faith are the natural completion of believing in Christ.
As we trust and do God’s work He instills within us more grace so that we may become holier and so be ready to meet Him at the end of our life.

While we might express it differently, there is a level of agreement here, as well.

Peace

And also with you.

Jon