Fallible canon of scripture

  • Thread starter Thread starter hapaxparadidoma
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
H

hapaxparadidoma

Guest
Some protestants argue that they have a fallible canon of infallible scripture. Isn’t that the same thing as saying :

‘We are certain scripture is infallible but we are not certain it is scripture’?

What is your take?
 
Some protestants argue that they have a fallible canon of infallible scripture. Isn’t that the same thing as saying :

‘We are certain scripture is infallible but we are not certain it is scripture’?

What is your take?
While I’ve not heard this, it seems to me they are saying they don’t know the expanse of scripture, beyond what they already accept - the 27 books of the NT, for example.

The Lutheran confessions never state a list of the books of scripture, which technically leaves the canon open. Do you have a source or example?

Jon
 
I don’t think I’ve heard that. I’ve heard it said that they cannot precisely define the limits of the canon, but the Catholic Church agrees with that so it is not really a Protestant position.
 
I don’t think I’ve heard that. I’ve heard it said that they cannot precisely define the limits of the canon, but the Catholic Church agrees with that so it is not really a Protestant position.
Where do you get this idea from? “Catholic Church agrees with that”.
 
While I’ve not heard this, it seems to me they are saying they don’t know the expanse of scripture, beyond what they already accept - the 27 books of the NT, for example.
The following quote comes from Sola Scriptura! The protestant position on the bible. From R.C. Sproul’s chapter titled ‘The Establishment of Scripture’.
Though Luther did not challenge the infallibility of Scripture he most emphatically challenged the infallibility of the church. He allowed for the possibility that the church could err, even when the church ruled on the question of what books properly belonged in the Canon. To see this issue more clearly we can refer to a distinction often made by Dr. John Gerstner. Gerstner distinguishes between the Roman Catholic view of the Canon and the Protestant view of the Canon in this manner:
• ROMAN CATHOLIC VIEW: The Bible is an infallible collection of infallible books.
• PROTESTANT VIEW: The Bible is a fallible collection of infallible books.
The distinction in view here refers to the Catholic Church’s conviction that the Canon of Scripture was declared infallibly by the church. On the other hand, the Protestant view is that the church’s decision regarding what books make up the Canon was a fallible decision. Being fallible means that it is possible that the church erred in its compilation of the books found in the present Canon of Scripture.
When Gerstner makes this distinction he is neither asserting nor implying that the church indeed did err in its judgment of what properly belongs to the Canon. His view is not designed to cast doubt on the Canon but simply to guard against the idea of an infallible church. It is one thing to say that the church could have erred; it is another thing to say that the church did err.
Gerstner’s formula has often been met with both consternation and sharp criticism in evangelical circles. It seems to indicate that he and those who agree with his assessment are undermining the authority of the Bible. But nothing could be further from the truth. Like Luther and Calvin before him, Gerstner has been an ardent defender of the infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture. His formula is merely designed to acknowledge that there was a historical selection process by which the church determined what books were really Scripture and what books were not Scripture. The point is that in this sifting or selection process the church sought to identify what books were actually to be regarded as Scripture.
The Lutheran confessions never state a list of the books of scripture, which technically leaves the canon open. Do you have a source or example?
Jon
I didn’t know that. I believe the Westminister confession holds to a closed canon.
 
=hapaxparadidoma;7841361]The following quote comes from Sola Scriptura! The protestant position on the bible. From R.C. Sproul’s chapter titled ‘The Establishment of Scripture’.
I honestly don’t know much about Sproul, other than he is not Lutheran. My take on a couple of things.
  1. Personally, I would say that of the OT, the deuterocanon is disputed, long in the history of the Church, That doesn’t make it not scripture. It makes it “disputed”, and doctrine ought to be supported by the balance of scripture that is not. So, if that is what he means by a fallible decision regarding the canon, ok. But there are 66 books that are agreed to be canon by virtually all Christians, and I see no reason to question these, even those disputed books of the NT canon.
    Therefore, if it is a fallible selection, it isn’t fallible in the positive (those 66 I would consider infallibly selected), but in the negative (the D-C’s and the Orthodox apocrypha as they may or may not be). In short, protestants too, may be wrong in not considering them canon.
I didn’t know that. I believe the Westminister confession holds to a closed canon.
I’ll let those who confess Westminster respond to this.

Jon
 
Where do you get this idea from? “Catholic Church agrees with that”.
The Catholic Church has no argument with the canon used by the Eastern Orthodox, or Oriental Orthodox, which is different than her own canon.

Which means the CC does not think the canon is precisely defined.
 
Some protestants argue that they have a fallible canon of infallible scripture. Isn’t that the same thing as saying :

‘We are certain scripture is infallible but we are not certain it is scripture’?

What is your take?
My take is that we are absolutely certain what what books of the Bible are genuinely Scripture, but the early councils that determined the canon were not protected from error by the Holy Spirit.

In spite of not being protected from error by the Holy Spirit, they reached a universal consensus on the 27 books of the New Testament. It’s also worth noting how they did not reach universal consensus on the books of the Old Testament. A canon was already in place that was used among Jews, but no OT canon was declared with finality for any of the ancient churches until the second millennium.

This last part is especially worth noting for the following reason. For those who believe these councils enjoyed divine protection from error, why would He have guided them into perfect agreement on the NT canon but not on the OT canon? (Christianity still isn’t in agreement on the OT canon, but you knew that). So how does it make sense for God to guide them infallibly on the NT canon but not on the OT canon…at least, not until the 15th century when the Holy Spirit guided His One True Church in this way, but only after the Christians represented by most of the early ecumenical councils were in schism from Rome and only when the Protestant Reformation brought the issue back to the forefront of attention in the West? Doesn’t it make more sense to suppose that they were simply able to reach universal consensus in some instances but not others?

Suppose you ask what these early Christians said of themselves when they initially went through this process. Did they claim to enjoy protection from error by the Holy Spirit? Well, the only way to answer that is to say they did not make any such claim. They didn’t deny it, but that was because the idea did not exist. No one was suggesting it, so there was nothing to deny. The concept of infallibility was certainly well known- they were dealing with Scripture, after all. However, the first time anyone applied this idea to early ecumenical councils was in the 8th century.

The middle of the 8th century, to be a bit more precise. That’s when one Arab Christian named Theodore Abu-Qurrah addressed the issue of the confidence that later generations of Christians could have in the early ecumenical councils. How do we know they were right? His idea was this: The only way we can have an appropriately large amount of certitude in what they came up with (starting with the canon of Scripture) is to suppose that they were protected from error by the Holy Spirit. (If you can imagine that you’re talking to a mixture of Greek and Roman Christians in the 8th century, you could ask this man why God would have guided them to infallible certitude on the NT canon but not the OT…but make sure you do so in the mixed company of Greek and Roman Christians. That might be interesting…or awkward).

At any rate, that’s the first time anyone had such an idea, but it didn’t begin to get really popular until pretty well into the 9th century. But as of right now, most Catholics just assume that the idea goes back as far as the early councils themselves and that we should take their word for it when they say they’re infallible. Which they did not.

So are Protestants certain that our books of the Bible are actually the Bible? Yes we are. Do we claim that we were protected from error from the Holy Spirit in coming to the consensus that we have? No, but we’re sure that we’re dependent on the appropriate canons.
 
I honestly don’t know much about Sproul, other than he is not Lutheran. My take on a couple of things.
  1. Personally, I would say that of the OT, the deuterocanon is disputed, long in the history of the Church, That doesn’t make it not scripture. It makes it “disputed”, and doctrine ought to be supported by the balance of scripture that is not. So, if that is what he means by a fallible decision regarding the canon, ok. But there are 66 books that are agreed to be canon by virtually all Christians, and I see no reason to question these, even those disputed books of the NT canon.
    Therefore, if it is a fallible selection, it isn’t fallible in the positive (those 66 I would consider infallibly selected), but in the negative (the D-C’s and the Orthodox apocrypha as they may or may not be). In short, protestants too, may be wrong in not considering them canon.
I’ll let those who confess Westminster respond to this.

Jon
No, Sproul is not a Lutheran. But he is one of the most highly respected names in Calvinism, and is the editor of The Reformation Study Bible.

The Westminster Confession is also not a Lutheran document, but Calvinist (or Reformed, as Calvinists usually prefer to be called).
 
Some protestants argue that they have a fallible canon of infallible scripture. Isn’t that the same thing as saying :

‘We are certain scripture is infallible but we are not certain it is scripture’?

What is your take?
Why do you think certainty in matters of religion is either necessary or desirable?

Try to use religious authority to answer epistemological problems, and you will either fall into intellectual dishonesty or land yourself in a hopeless quandary.

As Protestants have been pointing out for a long time now, Catholics also discern an infallible authority fallibly. Sure, there are some pragmatic advantages to having the Pope in addition to Scripture, but that doesn’t address the basic question raised by your criticism of the Protestant position.

Karl Keating has made an argument in rejoinder to this standard objection (his argument is, ironically and tellingly, adapted from a Protestant argument in favor of Scriptural inerrancy used by the “Old Princeton” theologians), which rests on the untenable premise that one can establish the full historical accuracy of Scripture beyond reasonable doubt by purely historical means. (In particular, Keating relies on Matt. 16 with Jesus’ promise to Peter–but that passage in particular is of highly dubious authenticity if one does not first assume its authority as a matter of faith.)

So there is no good answer. The whole “epistemological” approach is a dead end.

And just because I know I’ll get this accusation–nothing I have said in any way implies relativism. A modest and realistic estimate of the limits of our knowledge is not the same thing as relativism.

Edwin
 
The belief that scripture is infallible is idolatry.

Ya… not a good idea to listen to any broken mind that teaches such a thing.
 
The belief that scripture is infallible is idolatry.

Ya… not a good idea to listen to any broken mind that teaches such a thing.
Way to substitute name-calling for argument.

There is nothing idolatrous about believing that the instruments God uses to reveal Himself to us have certain qualities that pertain to the Source from which they come.

The great modern Protestant fear of “idolatry” with regard to those means of grace God has ordained is a lot of paranoid nonsense, linked to a radical loss of nerve with regard to God’s ability to interact with His creation.

The problem isn’t infallibility per se, but the mistaken belief that infallibility is an epistemological guarantee.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top