Fantasy "husband" vs. real one

  • Thread starter Thread starter Miranda27
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
dailey said:
Well, I’m gonna say that this is pretty normal behavior.:o I know I have, in the past, “made up” the perfect man in my head and actually spent time fantasizing about it. Sometimes more than I care to admit. 😊 I have even done it several years into my marriage…but not anymore. Why? Because Jesus says we can sin in our thoughts.

Bottom line, I think some people just have a much more active imagination then others. I would say that this would be true for myself…and obviously for the OP too.
Click to expand...
I am inclined to agree. The OP knows this imaginary husband isn’t real and it doesn’t affect her day-to-day life. She knows the difference between reality and fantasy. So in layman terms, she’s not crazy, she just has a really good imagination.

I say this as someone who also has a vivid imagination. I don’t have any imaginary friends, but I sometimes play out fantasies in my head where I “save the day” or make an awesome discovery or am part of a historical event. It’s fun (and I also don’t get bored sitting around waiting and such–it’s like custom TV in my head).

But I do think she would benefit from counseling–not for the imaginary friend, but for her marriage. From the sounds of it, the marriage isn’t in trouble or anything because of the imaginary husband, but I am of the opinion that anything can be improved. Perhaps counseling could reinforce the reality of what a real marriage is like (so the OP doesn’t become discontented in time if her real marriage isn’t “perfect” like the imaginary one). And maybe counseling is really a step too far, maybe just something like a couple’s retreat or workshop to strengthen the bond. Something to assure the OP and her husband.

As for sin, I am not sure if it’s sinful or not–I think it just depends on the degree and type of fantasies. I’d ask a priest for guidance.
 
40.png
Thought_Officer:
Well that seems to be the assumption. Why do say that it’s disordered?

Generally for a diagnoses to me made, atypical behaviours or cognitions have to be sufficiently severe so as to cause marked impairment in occupational functioning or in usual social activities or relationships with others (DSM IV, 2000). OP has described her fantasy husband as an uplifting part of her life; she furthermore cites her relationship and overall life experiences to be positive.

And this is assuming that her cognitions really are unusual, which I don’t necessarily think they are. The difference between OP and everyone else on this forum: she revealed the nature of her fantasies, however detailed and well-structured they are.
Click to expand...
DSM seems to believe everything is fine as long as you’re syntonic, i.e. basically feeling good about yourself. That’s liberalism, not science, and it’s certainly not compatible with Catholic morality, which is built on absolute, objective and external norms and subjective circumstances only affect individual imputability.

And when the other posters talk about “disordered”, they primarily mean ethics, not psychiatry. They refer to the fact that a Catholic person may be married to one other person at a time, not two or more. In Catholic morality, living things out physically is not so much different from living them out in your mind. For example, if you process a sexual scenario with a woman not your wife in your head, in Catholic morality you’re also guilty of adultery. This is different from secular morality, shaped by secular law, in which only externally manifested actions are relevant.

@Miranda27: Take it from someone who also has a vivid imagination and prefers a good novel to going out in the streets: you can’t be married to two people at the same time. Marriage is not just sexual relations, it is the “community” of life, which means sharing it. We, of course, share our lives with our friends, family members, co-workers and sometimes stranger, but not to the extent we do with a spouse. That community is exclusive. Just as we can’t have a real life friend whom we would regard as a spouse in our imagination, we can’t have an imaginary spouse. Just because the person doesn’t physically exist doesn’t mean it’s okay, especially if the emotions and feelings are true (are felt just like in real life). What-ifs are one thing, active imagination is another.

I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be thrilled if you heard your husband basically actively dreamt about being married to someone else, every day, for years.

I would suggest talking to a counsellor. I’m not implying you have an actual psychiatric problem, but there are things to sort out, in which you need help from the outside, from someone qualified.
 
40.png
Thought_Officer:
Well that seems to be the assumption. Why do say that it’s disordered?

Generally for a diagnoses to me made, atypical behaviours or cognitions have to be sufficiently severe so as to cause marked impairment in occupational functioning or in usual social activities or relationships with others (DSM IV, 2000). OP has described her fantasy husband as an uplifting part of her life; she furthermore cites her relationship and overall life experiences to be positive.

And this is assuming that her cognitions really are unusual, which I don’t necessarily think they are. The difference between OP and everyone else on this forum: she revealed the nature of her fantasies, however detailed and well-structured they are.
Click to expand...
Thought Officer, keep in mind that we’re talking from a Catholic perspective here, so we see some things as wrong that you see no harm in, especially since we don’t take a consequentialist view of morality.

Indulging in fantasies about a real person like, say, a friend’s husband, may be considered wrong, and so I see little reason to see how indulging in fantasies about imaginary persons might be looked upon as differently.

That said, I don’t think that what the OP is doing is terrible, and I’m not going to go so far as to say whether she is committing a sin or not, but I do think it could be an impediment in her emotional relationship with her husband.

There’s nothing she can do with regard to becoming physically attracted to him - that’s something beyond anybody’s control. If you don’t like vanilla-flavoured ice cream, you don’t like vanilla-flavoured ice cream and you can’t change that, but if this fantasy is an impediment in her marriage in other ways, it would be best to get it under control.

I do think VonDerTann made a good point that if the sexes were reversed, the reaction would probably have been different, and the guy would be accused of being unfaithful, not appreciating his wife and treating women like a piece meat or God only knows what. We mustn’t set the bar too high for men or too low for women. Morality applies to us both equally.

I will still refrain from giving advice to Miranda, and I haven’t myself resolved the morality of this issue, but I will give my opinion that this is potentially a problem and deserves looking into.
 
You might want to read the book Every Woman’s Battle, Shannon Ethridge. It discusses fantasy for women and after reading it, I’d have to say I am convinced that this kind of fantasy is a problem.
 
VonDerTann said:
Folks, if the genders were reversed – if OP was a married GUY who droned on about how he pined for his “fantasy wife,” he’d get 1000% BLASTED as a sinner, an adulterer, someone who ought to work on his marriage to his really wonderful, long-suffering actual wife, etc. He’d be reminded that he made a vow to God. He might get told to “man up.” He’d be accused of having an "emotional affair."

And this ought to be no different.

IMHO, is what OP doing a sin? IMHO yes. It’s fantasizing about being married to someone other than her husband. The fact that the fantasy doesn’t involve sexual penetration does not render it not a fantasy. Such a fantasy also results in husband’s degradation; he’s constantly being compared to, and found wanting compared to, a nonexistant but nonetheless better man. It’s at a minimum hurtful and insulting to a husband who OP describes as a wonderful man whose only crime is being unattractive to OP – but he was from the start, and OP married him with her eyes open. I might add that OP was not married at 18 years old to this man and can’t claim naivety, etc.

At a minimum it is at least a near occasion of sin. ANY fantasy like this IMHO is also a bit of a gateway in that it paves the way for other more sinful activities. It makes OP tend to want to really find this “fantasy person,” when what she ought to do is communicate how she’d like to be treated. It’s also a very short leap from “I wish I were married to this man,” to “I wish I could have sex with this other man.” Problem is, it seems like she’s already treated pretty well, MUCH better than many wives, and yet wants more.

So I’m sorry to be harsh, OP, but IMHO your fantasies are counterproductive and hurtful to your husband; your marriage; and God. See your REAL husband for who he is; love him; and be married to him, ALONE. Period.
Click to expand...
Exactly.
 
I would like to weigh in here. I too have a lot of personal and family experience with mental health problems.

I would agree with previous posters that the situation the O.P. described is a problem. I suspect that the O.P. also agrees with this or suspects it or she would not have posted the problem. In terms of catholic vocabulary the situation is seriously disordered.

You should seek help. I would recommend asking your priest for help in finding a suitably qualified Catholic or Christian psychologist / Psychiatrist. They can then help you judge if you need medical treatment or if you would benefit from more routine counselling.

This is an area where having a clinical person who is sympathetic to a catholic view of the world would definitely help.

I suspect that in medical terms many clinicians may not consider the situation to meet the requirements of a clinical disorder, but from my understanding I think this is a marginal case. - you are likely to get different answers from different clinicians.

From my own experience I think that some form of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy may be helpful in putting these habitual fantasies aside - however I do not feel that the case as outlined but the O.P. is likely to meet the the diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia - or any of it’s related psychoses or spectrum disorders.
however If these thoughts are causing real immediate problems then anti-phsycotic drugs might help suppress them during a period of therapy. - That decision would need to be made with a team including a qualified Psychiatrist, and a clinical psychologist.

To Thought Officer:
I know I’m from the opposite side of the Atlantic to you, but over here Psychoanalysis is very rare. It’s a process that to do properly requires a enormous (name removed by moderator)ut of man-hours. The modern techniques of CBT, and it’s more specialized variants are rapidly gaining favour in the health systems because they are genuinely effective for large numbers of people at dealing with problem thoughts.

The underlying theory of psychoanalysis that simply remembering and analysis the childhood origin of your current condition does not actually fix the habitual cognitive patterns that lead to real daily problems like depressive, compulsive or destructive thoughts and actions (or any of the wide range of problem areas for which this type of therapy might help)

Don’t get me wrong I’m not claiming it’s a panacea - it’s not. but its a very important part of the toolbox for a clinical team. - and due to it’s relatively low cost can often be an effective first approach to many problems - used with or without drug therapies as well.
 
It seems to me like the OP shouldn’t have married her husband, but now that she did its time to ditch the fantasy man and put all of your time and energy into real husband.

If I found out that my fiance had an imaginary ideal woman that he carried with him in his head and heart I would not marry him. I could not marry someone who was settling for me because what he had really wanted his entire life didn’t exist. That would not be fair to me. I think she owes it to her husband to be honest and tell him how she really feels. He needs to know the truth about how his wife sees him and feels about it.

I don’t really know where she should go from here, but she needs to include her husband in the decisions that she’s going to have to make. (And the counseling that she is going to need.)
 
BlueEyedLady said:
It seems to me like the OP shouldn’t have married her husband, but now that she did its time to ditch the fantasy man and put all of your time and energy into real husband.
Click to expand...
Why shouldn’t have OP married him? He sounds like a good guy. If it’s to do with the fact she doesn’t find him physically attractive, then I don’t see what the problem is. Guys often marry women they don’t find particularly attractive but because they love them nonetheless.
If I found out that my fiance had an imaginary ideal woman that he carried with him in his head and heart I would not marry him. I could not marry someone who was settling for me because what he had really wanted his entire life didn’t exist. That would not be fair to me. I think she owes it to her husband to be honest and tell him how she really feels. He needs to know the truth about how his wife sees him and feels about it.
Click to expand...
I don’t think her husband needs to know because it could potentially be very painful for him. She would then hurt him unnecessarily and it would solve nothing. OP may well love her husband, but she doesn’t feel physically attracted to him and has some problems because he’s not perfect like her imaginary man is. There’s little she can do about the physical attraction aspect, but she can try to work on herself and make the marriage work.
 
King_Lazy said:
**
There’s nothing she can do with regard to becoming physically attracted to him - that’s something beyond anybody’s control. If you don’t like vanilla-flavoured ice cream, you don’t like vanilla-flavoured ice cream and you can’t change that, but if this fantasy is an impediment in her marriage in other ways, it would be best to get it under control.
**
Click to expand...
But my concern is that she has put a LOT of time and emotional energy into creating and maintaining this fantasy man. Could ANY real man match him in terms of attractiveness, sexiness, PERFECTION? He is a creation of her own mind, and I believe that DOES give the fantasy a lot of power to affect her preferences, her choices, her actions, and her emotions.

OP, you haven’t returned to answer my question about whether your fantasy man is sexual. If he is, you are the female equivalent to a porn addict. Your unreal person is competing with reality, and reality will always, ALWAYS fall short.

I think you should tell your husband about this, get counseling for yourself, get counseling for you and your husband, as soon as possible. You married your husband for some reason, maybe you were rather tired of the fantasy and want to stop, but you need some help. It’s time to make a choice. The real husband, or Invisible Husband. You can’t have both.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
But my concern is that she has put a LOT of time and emotional energy into creating and maintaining this fantasy man. Could ANY real man match him in terms of attractiveness, sexiness, PERFECTION? He is a creation of her own mind, and I believe that DOES give the fantasy a lot of power to affect her preferences, her choices, her actions, and her emotions.
Click to expand...
I strongly agree with you. I think I said something along those lines before too, so we’re on the same page. And I guess I failed to realise that her attachment to her fantasy may be what is making her husband seem unattractive to her. However, even if she gets over her fantasy and decides he’s not as sexy as she’d want him to be, it’s no reason to call it quits as far as the marriage is concerned.

I’d disagree with you about telling the husband, but that’s just because I personally would feel quite hurt and offended and would not want to hear that, especially since there’s little I could do about it to fix it. But perhaps telling him is a way to solve the problem. I’ll let others mull on that.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
But my concern is that she has put a LOT of time and emotional energy into creating and maintaining this fantasy man. Could ANY real man match him in terms of attractiveness, sexiness, PERFECTION? He is a creation of her own mind, and I believe that DOES give the fantasy a lot of power to affect her preferences, her choices, her actions, and her emotions.
Click to expand...
Completely agree with this- I think if your husband is unattractive to you, consider that you’re comparing him to your fantasy husband. Personally I think the whole thing is rather unhealthy. It is one thing to have an active imagination, and most of us probably daydream every now and then. It is entirely another thing to rely so much on a fictional person that you become depressed if you don’t think about him and feel as though the “best part of you dies” without him.

You say “my fantasy world doesn’t affect my everyday life” but it seems to me that it does, in a major way if you cannot function without this delusion. You also say that you “use” your made-up husband to “project your love” onto your real husband so that you don’t “neglect him”? What does that mean exactly? Whether it’s physically or emotionally, loving your spouse should be a choice and not reliant on this fictional character to spur you to act lovingly toward your own husband. If you would neglect your husband without the “transference” technique you have developed, I do think that you could benefit from counseling to rid yourself of this and help you to focus on your real marriage.
 
Hi, it’s me again (the person who started this thread).

Yes, I have a huge amount of emotion invested in this fantasy – for me, my “parallel reality” has always felt happy, safe, and fun with “people” who are (ironically) virtuous Catholics and allowed me to be my best self. It’s hard to fall *out *of love with an **ideal **(yes, I’m a hopeless romantic). But ultimately, I’d rather live in reality and not put my soul in jeopardy. I generally do try to guard my thoughts against anything sinful, even in my fantasy. (My “ideal husband” doesn’t believe in adultery, fornication, contraception, etc. either and would never want to offend Jesus by going against Church teaching. My real husband doesn’t exist in my fantasy at all so it’s not technically “bigamy.”) I realize I do have “agency” over my thoughts and can choose not to engage the “risky” ones. On some level, I know that non-incarnate, disembodied “ideals” don’t satisfy in the long run (but they do help me in the short-term).

I appreciate everyone’s thoughtful, candid responses as I struggle with this issue. You forum folks are very perceptive (special thanks to"TheRealJuliane") and each comment posted here contains nuggets of truth that I’ve previously acknowledged to myself. (I’m not so far out of touch that I don’t recognize these things.) I do feel really blessed to have the wonderful **real **hubby that I do. In reflecting on this over the past day, I admit that he’s a special guy and a real gem (even if he’s not perfect).

You all have helped me see the issue clearly: this fantasy is “disordered” and that it’s time to choose. I think I just needed you all to tell me this candidly (in no uncertain terms and minimal psycho-babble). Obviously, I’d appreciate your prayers because it won’t be easy. It’ll be a moment-by-moment test to curb my thoughts and re-order them to real hubby. Easier said than done.

Please keep me in your prayers.
 
Miranda, I will pray for you. Please do not hesitate to seek help from God, your husband, your friends, a therapist, or even these forums as you work through this struggle!
 
VonDerTann said:
Folks, if the genders were reversed – if OP was a married GUY who droned on about how he pined for his “fantasy wife,” he’d get 1000% BLASTED as a sinner, an adulterer, someone who ought to work on his marriage to his really wonderful, long-suffering actual wife, etc. He’d be reminded that he made a vow to God. He might get told to “man up.” He’d be accused of having an “emotional affair.”

And this ought to be no different.

IMHO, is what OP doing a sin? IMHO yes. It’s fantasizing about being married to someone other than her husband. The fact that the fantasy doesn’t involve sexual penetration does not render it not a fantasy. Such a fantasy also results in husband’s degradation; he’s constantly being compared to, and found wanting compared to, a nonexistant but nonetheless better man. It’s at a minimum hurtful and insulting to a husband who OP describes as a wonderful man whose only crime is being unattractive to OP – but he was from the start, and OP married him with her eyes open. I might add that OP was not married at 18 years old to this man and can’t claim naivety, etc.

At a minimum it is at least a near occasion of sin. ANY fantasy like this IMHO is also a bit of a gateway in that it paves the way for other more sinful activities. It makes OP tend to want to really find this “fantasy person,” when what she ought to do is communicate how she’d like to be treated. It’s also a very short leap from “I wish I were married to this man,” to “I wish I could have sex with this other man.” Problem is, it seems like she’s already treated pretty well, MUCH better than many wives, and yet wants more.

So I’m sorry to be harsh, OP, but IMHO your fantasies are counterproductive and hurtful to your husband; your marriage; and God. See your REAL husband for who he is; love him; and be married to him, ALONE. Period.
Click to expand...
Bingo! This nails it spot on. I don’t know whether I would completely consider this sinful, but at minimum, it is the near occasion of sin. And, by the way, some of the same posters on this board saying it is not sinful has posted the opposite on other threads. Unbelievable.
 
I think I just needed you all to tell me this candidly (in no uncertain terms and minimal psycho-babble). Obviously, I’d appreciate your prayers because it won’t be easy.
Click to expand...
i’m praying for you right now.
 
Hiya,

So you don’t think your husband has a fantasy woman? Most people have fantasy people they like, more people than you’d think have them as imaginary friends/spouses, it doesn’t stop them loving their real ones. It’s no different to being obsessed w/ Star Wars, a football team etc. I’m sure your RH has some idea of this. So you’re 40 y/o; shouldn’t matter if you’re 100 y/o. He’s part of your life, has been for years, & you should be very proud of yourself for creating him. Keep him, I say.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top