Fate of the Unbaptized

  • Thread starter Thread starter Neithan
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
N

Neithan

Guest
I sped read a little book today called Five Great Catholic Ideas by a one Fr. Edward Wm. Clark, a priest of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. Interesting book more or less, but one bit in particular caught my attention. In a section on Immortality, after briefly explaining the ongoing theological debate in Church Tradition on whether our first parents possessed the ‘supernatural life’ from the beginning and lost it, or were prevented from attaining it, he writes the following:
All of this, of course, remains speculation for philosophers and theologians, very much like the question of the final destiny of the unbaptized person–confined to hell, stranded in limbo, transformed at death, instantaneously enlightened, simply annihilated, or any number of other conceivable possibilities …] Immortality and eternal life are certainties only in light of the supernatural state, assured for us in baptism.
Click to expand...
Is Fr. Clark confused, or is it true that the Church has no definitive teaching on all unbaptized people? Including adults? It does seem to make sense. Why would God give eternal life to an unbaptized soul who has never accepted the promises resulting therefrom? Fr. Clark even mentions annihilation; is this possible in light of the dogma of the General Resurrection? Or will they be annihilated in the “second death” which the book of Revelation mentions?

Correct me if I’m a heretic, but it makes much more sense to me that God would annihilate the unbaptised* after the General Judgement, and that they would suffer in hell, or limbo, only until that time. Firstly, why would God resurrect and condemn to a “second death” if this is actually eternal life of torment (not to mention how cruel and unjust this seems for His perfect love)? Shouldn’t immortality be reserved for the blessed? Secondly, how is it possible that an unbaptised person, who has never had a share in the divine life, who has never possessed supernatural grace; how is it possible for them to live forever? Why would God want them to, anyway?

Does actual sin for the unbaptized carry with it the eternal offenses that it does for the baptized? The unbaptized never share in the supernatural (due to original sin), and their personal sins do not break eternal promises, so why would they warrant an eternal, supernatural penalty? On second thought, will the unbaptized be resurrected at all or annihilated at their ‘first death’?
  • Of course none of the above applies to unbaptized Jews who hold to the old covenant of circumcision.
 
Official teaching:

CCC: 1260
“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

CCC: 1261

As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

There is also Baptism of blood CCC:1258 (died for the faith without being baptized) and Baptism of desire CCC:1259 (for catechumens who die before their baptism).
 
Hi Neithan,

With the unbaptised there is also a baptism of desire- as per previous quote. I imagine you have heard of this. This is what often happens to people like the salvation army who are really good people , but don’t get baptised. Many non Catholic Christians do not baptise properly, but they can receive a baptism of desire. Same with babies, we hope. What about the millions of aborted babies. Maybe God illumines their mind just before death, so they can make a choice. We don’t know. It’s in Gods hands.
With eternal death. Every single person shall be resurrected, and noone shall be anihilated. Eternal death is like being in a perpetual state of dying. That is what this refers to.
 
Thanks fellas.

Has the Church an infallible teaching on the damned *after *the General Judgement? Or is it still a matter of debate as Fr. Clark seems to suggest?
 
40.png
Neithan:
Thanks fellas.

Has the Church an infallible teaching on the damned *after *the General Judgement? Or is it still a matter of debate as Fr. Clark seems to suggest?
Click to expand...
Hi,
In our creeds we say , " from thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead."
The CCC says,
**II. TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD **

678 Following in the steps of the prophets and John the Baptist, Jesus announced the judgment of the Last Day in his preaching.582 Then will the conduct of each one and the secrets of hearts be brought to light.583 Then will the culpable unbelief that counted the offer of God’s grace as nothing be condemned.584 Our attitude to our neighbor will disclose acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love.585 On the Last Day Jesus will say: "Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."586

[679](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/679.htm’)😉 Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He “acquired” this right by his cross. The Father has given “all judgment to the Son”.587 Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself.588 By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one’s works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.589

**IN BRIEF **

680 Christ the Lord already reigns through the Church, but all the things of this world are not yet subjected to him. The triumph of Christ’s kingdom will not come about without one last assault by the powers of evil.

681 On Judgment Day at the end of the world, Christ will come in glory to achieve the definitive triumph of good over evil which, like the wheat and the tares, have grown up together in the course of history. 682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.
Also-
scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm And read these-
See in ccc-ARTICLE 11: “I BELIEVE IN THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY”
ARTICLE 12: “I BELIEVE IN LIFE EVERLASTING”
It has always been the teaching of the Church that hell is eternal.
 
40.png
Neithan:
Hmm… okay. Thanks for clearing up my confusion.
Click to expand...
Hi Neithan,
Sounds like you need more info. These ancient creeds are a part of tradition. Tradition is part of the deposit of faith left by the apostles. The deposit of faith is made up of the written and unwritten word of God - scripture and tradition. It is a constant teaching left us by the apostles. Souls do go to hell, and hell never ends,
 
I understand, but the way Fr. Clark described it was that we are not assured of immortality without baptism, because at baptism a fundamental change happens to the person, and they become something supernatural, rather than just natural. So he seems to leave the question open. The book does not have Nihil Obstat nor Imprimatur so perhaps it is rife with errors.
 
40.png
Neithan:
I understand, but the way Fr. Clark described it was that we are not assured of immortality without baptism, because at baptism a fundamental change happens to the person, and they become something supernatural, rather than just natural. So he seems to leave the question open. The book does not have Nihil Obstat nor Imprimatur so perhaps it is rife with errors.
Click to expand...
I would disregard this book, by the sounds of things.
Some quotes from ccc.
**1213 **Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.”
**1272 **Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
**1257 **The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
**1271 **Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.” “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.”
**537 **Through Baptism the Christian is sacramentally assimilated to Jesus, who in his own baptism anticipates his death and resurrection. The Christian must enter into this mystery of humble self-abasement and repentance, go down into the water with Jesus in order to rise with him, be reborn of water and the Spirit so as to become the Father’s beloved son in the Son and “walk in newness of life”:

Let us be buried with Christ by Baptism to rise with him; let us go down with him to be raised with him; and let us rise with him to be glorified with him. Everything that happened to Christ lets us know that, after the bath of water, the Holy Spirit swoops down upon us from high heaven and that, adopted by the Father’s voice, we become sons of God.
More to follow-
 
**1231 **Where infant Baptism has become the form in which this sacrament is usually celebrated, it has become a single act encapsulating the preparatory stages of Christian initiation in a very abridged way. By its very nature infant Baptism requires a post-baptismal catechumenate. Not only is there a need for instruction after Baptism, but also for the necessary flowering of baptismal grace in personal growth. The *catechism *has its proper place here.
**1253 **Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!”
**1267 **Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: “Therefore . . . we are members one of another.” Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.”
**1277 **Baptism is birth into the new life in Christ. In accordance with the Lord’s will, it is necessary for salvation, as is the Church herself, which we enter by Baptism.
**1259 **For *catechumens *who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
**1259 **For *catechumens *who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
**1258 **The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
**1290 **In the first centuries Confirmation generally comprised one single celebration with Baptism, forming with it a “double sacrament,” according to the expression of St. Cyprian. Among other reasons, the multiplication of infant baptisms all through the year, the increase of rural parishes, and the growth of dioceses often prevented the bishop from being present at all baptismal celebrations. In the West the desire to reserve the completion of Baptism to the bishop caused the temporal separation of the two sacraments. The East has kept them united, so that Confirmation is conferred by the priest who baptizes. But he can do so only with the “myron” consecrated by a bishop.
**1010 **Because of Christ, Christian death has a positive meaning: “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.” "The saying is sure: if we have died with him, we will also live with him. What is essentially new about Christian death is this: through Baptism, the Christian has already “died with Christ” sacramentally, in order to live a new life; and if we die in Christ’s grace, physical death completes this “dying with Christ” and so completes our incorporation into him in his redeeming act:

It is better for me to die in (eis) Christ Jesus than to reign over the ends of the earth. Him it is I seek - who died for us. Him it is I desire - who rose for us. I am on the point of giving birth. . . . Let me receive pure light; when I shall have arrived there, then shall I be a man.
 
The unbaptized die and go into the ground, just like the baptized will. Nothing happens after death either way, so it’s a moot point to me…
 
40.png
Openly_Atheist:
The unbaptized die and go into the ground, just like the baptized will. Nothing happens after death either way, so it’s a moot point to me…
Click to expand...
Hi,
So. I’ve been wasting my time saying all those prayers!!!1000,s of hours of praying, all for nothing. Thanks for enlightening me while I can still enjoy life. Perhaps I will pray anyway, just to be sure. Why don’t you do the same? At least we will still get to Heaven if we’re wrong.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top