Father cleared of murdering son

[FightingFat]

A former SAS soldier who smothered his terminally-ill son with a pillow has been found not guilty of murder.

Andrew Wragg, 38, of Worthing, West Sussex, had denied murdering Jacob in July 2004, but admitted manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility.

Ten-year-old Jacob had the degenerative disease Hunter Syndrome and was deaf and using a wheelchair.

Wragg was given a two-year prison sentence, suspended for two years, at Lewes Crown Court.

The trial judge, Mrs Justice Anne Rafferty, said the case had been “exceptional”, adding there was “nothing to be gained” from sending Wragg to jail.

But she added she would not have been as lenient had it not been for the “complicit” knowledge of his former wife, and Jacob’s mother, Mary Wragg. Mrs Wragg said her husband asked her to take their youngest son George, then aged six, to her mother’s home for the night on 24 July.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/4350153.stm

Sad day for pro-life eh?

 

[steve99]

FightingFat:

Wragg was given a two-year prison sentence, suspended for two years, at Lewes Crown Court.

So he is let off scott free provided he doesn’t kill another helpless disabled child in the next two years?

FightingFat:

The trial judge, Mrs Justice Anne Rafferty, said the case had been “exceptional”, adding there was “nothing to be gained” from sending Wragg to jail.

Like detering others for example?

FightingFat:

But she added she would not have been as lenient had it not been for the “complicit” knowledge of his former wife, and Jacob’s mother, Mary Wragg.

But what difference does that make?

FightingFat:

Sad day for pro-life eh?

Amen to that!

 

[rlg94086]

Absolutely deplorable!

All of those who came to defense of Andrea Yates, please explain to me why her case is different than this. Do you have the same sympathy for this father?

A former SAS soldier who smothered his terminally-ill son with a pillow has been found not guilty of murder.

Andrew Wragg, 38, of Worthing, West Sussex, had denied murdering Jacob in July 2004, but admitted manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility.

Ten-year-old Jacob had the degenerative disease Hunter Syndrome and was deaf and using a wheelchair.

Wragg was given a two-year prison sentence, suspended for two years, at Lewes Crown Court.

The trial judge, Mrs Justice Anne Rafferty, said the case had been “exceptional”, adding there was “nothing to be gained” from sending Wragg to jail.

But she added she would not have been as lenient had it not been for the “complicit” knowledge of his former wife, and Jacob’s mother, Mary Wragg. Mrs Wragg said her husband asked her to take their youngest son George, then aged six, to her mother’s home for the night on 24 July.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/4350153.stm

Sad day for pro-life eh?

 

[Anglican77]

The article seems to imply that the crime was reduced to manslaughter because Jacob told his father he wanted to die. How can the courts give any merit to that testimony? This is so horrible.

 

[Mom_of_one]

rlg94086:

Absolutely deplorable!

All of those who came to defense of Andrea Yates, please explain to me why her case is different than this. Do you have the same sympathy for this father?

OK, I’ll bite. Sympathy? Only for the stress he felt. I know how hard it is to care for a disabled child. However, he was not mentally ill. He did wrong(as Andrea Yates did) but his choice was made with a healthy(but overewhelmed with care for this child) mind, while her choice was made from a mind that was diseased in a way that most of us will never understand.

He should be in jail.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Stress and a mental defect and disease are two different things Nobody took up for her actions we infact said she was not as culpable for those action because she was totally mentally deficient!!! I dare anyone here to again suggest that because someone understands that some people are not as responsible for their actions due to mental disease to accuse people of supporting abortion or child murder

 

[rlg94086]

So this father’s temporary psychosis due to stress doesn’t count? Or do you assume he is a cold-blooded, pre-meditated murderer who killed his child? How mentally deficient do you need to be to get away with murder? Is it a sliding scale?

Added via edit…btw, I did not accuse anyone of supporting abortion or child murder, I just don’t agree with giving Yates a pass any more than I would give a pass to this father.

Lisa4Catholics:

Stress and a mental defect and disease are two different things Nobody took up for her actions we infact said she was not as culpable for those action because she was totally mentally deficient!!! I dare anyone here to again suggest that because someone understands that some people are not as responsible for their actions due to mental disease to accuse people of supporting abortion or child murder

 

[Mom_of_one]

rlg94086:

So this father’s temporary psychosis due to stress doesn’t count? Or do you assume he is a cold-blooded, pre-meditated murderer who killed his child? How mentally deficient do you need to be to get away with murder? Is it a sliding scale?

Added via edit…btw, I did not accuse anyone of supporting abortion or child murder, I just don’t agree with giving Yates a pass any more than I would give a pass to this father.

Who said anything about giving anyone a pass? And, no, it doesn’t count. When he sees demons and has satan talking to him, when he has visions of blood and gore, when he has the issues that mentally ill people do, then he is mentally ill. Don’t forget, these hallucinations that mentally ill people have ARE real to them. One woman told me that Satan was in her room, “right there”. She had been off her meds for some time, due to new regualtions by my nursing home director of nurses. Do you realize how frightening that must be? The world that is in a mentally ill person’s mind is real to them. There is a world of difference between what Andrea did and what this man did.

And no one said anything about getting away with murder, did we?

 

[rlg94086]

Thank you Doctor.
Mom of one:

Who said anything about giving anyone a pass? And, no, it doesn’t count. When he sees demons and has satan talking to him, when he has visions of blood and gore, when he has the issues that mentally ill people do, then he is mentally ill. Don’t forget, these hallucinations that mentally ill people have ARE real to them. One woman told me that Satan was in her room, “right there”. She had been off her meds for some time, due to new regualtions by my nursing home director of nurses. Do you realize how frightening that must be? The world that is in a mentally ill person’s mind is real to them. There is a world of difference between what Andrea did and what this man did.

And no one said anything about getting away with murder, did we?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

rlg94086:

So this father’s temporary psychosis due to stress doesn’t count? Or do you assume he is a cold-blooded, pre-meditated murderer who killed his child? How mentally deficient do you need to be to get away with murder? Is it a sliding scale?

Added via edit…btw, I did not accuse anyone of supporting abortion or child murder, I just don’t agree with giving Yates a pass any more than I would give a pass to this father.

We were indeed accused of playing the abortion tune on the other thread:tsktsk: Was this man stressed or scizophrenic?My cousin is messed up and he sees things and has attacked people,even children and as a child he had those problems when I would babysit him, he slept 2-3 hours a night.In your worst nightmare you can not comprehend someone who can not think in reality.

 

[rlg94086]

Lisa4Catholics:

We were indeed accused of playing the abortion tune on the other thread:tsktsk: Was this man stressed or scizophrenic?My cousin is messed up and he sees things and has attacked people,even children and as a child he had those problems when I would babysit him, he slept 2-3 hours a night.In your worst nightmare you can not comprehend someone who can not think in reality.

You may have been accused, but not by me and your response was to me. Again, I’m asking where the line is drawn. I don’t know this father’s level of psychosis, but what amount do you need to be considered “not as responsible for your action” as a cold-blooded killer? I think it’s a fair question.

 

[Mom_of_one]

rlg94086:

Thank you Doctor.

Wow! Was that really necessary? I may not be a doctor, but I do happen to know quite alot----Registered Nurse, with a BSN, thank you very much! I have done alot of research on this, as well. I also have a cousin who is mentally ill, although we don’t know for sure what is going on with her. My dad is also extremely depressed and needed to be in a psychiatric hospital twice. I have had mentally ill patients, too. Do I NEED to be a doctor to know something? It’s called experience and actually doing some reading and thinking, a gift God gave me.

I also am currently a home care nurse who works with disabled children. I cared for children who are going to die, children who are disabled, but will live a fairly normal lifespan, and children who are premature. I have saved lives of those disabled children and have picked up on something with one of those children that no one else did. I know how hard it is to care for a child that is disabled and I have a child myself that is “disabled”, though no where near as severe as this little boy.

I am well qualified to make intelligent comments on that situation, even though I DON’T have M(edical) D(iety) after my name.

 

[Mom_of_one]

rlg94086:

You may have been accused, but not by me and your response was to me. Again, I’m asking where the line is drawn. I don’t know this father’s level of psychosis, but what amount do you need to be considered “not as responsible for your action” as a cold-blooded killer? I think it’s a fair question.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

Well, if these reasons can mitigate suicide, why not murder? How ill is ill enough? I don’t know, but this says “grave” and I would say that having hallucinations counts as grave.

 

[rlg94086]

Sorry for offending…I certainly didn’t know your background when I made my offhand remark, and you are correct that it was unnecessary and uncharitable.

That said, you seemed to discount a lot of mental illness by only mentioning the extemes in the quote I responded to. And, anecdotal experience is not the same as being an expert…MD or no MD (not all doctors are experts either.)

My brother is disabled and we all had to do a lot to take care of him as a young child. If my Mom had “lost it” and smothered him with a pillow, I would still want her prosecuted.
Mom of one:

Wow! Was that really necessary? I may not be a doctor, but I do happen to know quite alot----Registered Nurse, with a BSN, thank you very much! I have done alot of research on this, as well. I also have a cousin who is mentally ill, although we don’t know for sure what is going on with her. My dad is also extremely depressed and needed to be in a psychiatric hospital twice. I have had mentally ill patients, too. Do I NEED to be a doctor to know something? It’s called experience and actually doing some reading and thinking, a gift God gave me.

I also am currently a home care nurse who works with disabled children. I cared for children who are going to die, children who are disabled, but will live a fairly normal lifespan, and children who are premature. I have saved lives of those disabled children and have picked up on something with one of those children that no one else did. I know how hard it is to care for a child that is disabled and I have a child myself that is “disabled”, though no where near as severe as this little boy.

I am well qualified to make intelligent comments on that situation, even though I DON’T have M(edical) D(iety) after my name.

 

[Mom_of_one]

rlg94086:

Sorry for offending…I certainly didn’t know your background when I made my offhand remark, and you are correct that it was unnecessary and uncharitable.

That said, you seemed to discount a lot of mental illness by only mentioning the extemes in the quote I responded to. And, anecdotal experience is not the same as being an expert…MD or no MD (not all doctors are experts either.)

My brother is disabled and we all had to do a lot to take care of him as a young child. If my Mom had “lost it” and smothered him with a pillow, I would still want her prosecuted.

Apology accepted. I’m not sure what you mean by I only respond to the extremes. Maybe it’s because I’m tired and I’m dealing with a dying relative, or maybe it’s because I sometimes need things spelled out for me more clearly(I have a mental illness, too, called attention deficit disorder, ya know!)

You are correct, anecdotal experience is not the same as being an expert, and I in no way, claim to be an expert. I just happen to know alot from those experiences and doing research.

And, I agree with the prosecution of this man, or Andrea, or your mom, if that had happened to her. It is the culpability that I am concerned with. This man is much more culpable than Andrea, because her mind was so ill. It is like having an ingrown fingernail vs. a grossly infected finger. Both painful, but one is so much worse.

BTW, I am glad that your mom did not do that. The world needs more examples like her. You are truly blessed to have her as a mom.

 

[rlg94086]

Mom of one:

And, I agree with the prosecution of this man, or Andrea, or your mom, if that had happened to her. It is the culpability that I am concerned with. This man is much more culpable than Andrea, because her mind was so ill. It is like having an ingrown fingernail vs. a grossly infected finger. Both painful, but one is so much worse.

I accept that there are degrees of culpability, but I’m not sure your analogy applies. If someone kills another, I don’t think you can dismiss a temporary psychosis versus a full-blown schizophrinic as far as culpability. Now, how they are treated after-the-fact (i.e. long-term mental care in lock-up versus long-term lock-up after brief mental care) is a different matter.

BTW, I am glad that your mom did not do that. My brother’s even more grateful!

The world needs more examples like her. You are truly blessed to have her as a mom.

On this, we definitely agree!

 

[Mom_of_one]

rlg94086:
I accept that there are degrees of culpability, but I’m not sure your analogy applies. If someone kills another, I don’t think you can dismiss a temporary psychosis versus a full-blown schizophrinic as far as culpability. Now, how they are treated after-the-fact (i.e. long-term mental care in lock-up versus long-term lock-up after brief mental care) is a different matter. **But who said that this man was psychotic? He was stressed, that’s it. According to the article, that is. **

My brother’s even more grateful! On this, we definitely agree!

 

[rlg94086]

**But who said that this man was psychotic? He was stressed, that’s it. According to the article, that is. **

My clinical diagnosis…doctor to doctor .

I admit it’s an assumption. I didn’t read any evidence that he had pre-meditated the murder of his son, and stress isn’t enough IMHO to cause you to murder your child. Stress which brings on a temporary psychotic state, however, makes sense to me.

That said, I am very dismayed that he wasn’t given a very, very long sentence.

 

[Mom_of_one]

rlg94086:

My clinical diagnosis…doctor to doctor .

I admit it’s an assumption. I didn’t read any evidence that he had pre-meditated the murder of his son, and stress isn’t enough IMHO to cause you to murder your child. Stress which brings on a temporary psychotic state, however, makes sense to me.

That said, I am very dismayed that he wasn’t given a very, very long sentence.

Well, there’s no evidence that he had a psychotic state brought on by stress. That might be a different situation. I don’t want to get into that because I don’t know much about that aspect of mental illness.

I agree, he should have been given a long prison sentence. And, he should have had disabled people visit him in prison. Every day.

 

[mlchance]

rlg94086:
I accept that there are degrees of culpability…

Degrees of culpability is a moral judgment about responsibility for sin ultimately in the hands of God. Guilt is a legal judgment about personal responsibility for a crime. The two are not necessarily related, and it can be just to incarcerate a guilty person who is not culpable for his crime.

– Mark L. Chance.