Fatima question/War

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I’ve been reading a bit about Fatima lately, and am a bit concerned/confused about the second secret. In Sister Lucy’s own words (quoting Our Lady):
“If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father.”
(source: ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/Third_Secret/Fatima.htm)
This is generally thought to be a prediction of WW2.
However, I was taught in my catechism that the Church generally does not interpret wars (and natural disasters,etc.) in the modern age to be punishments from God. Natural disasters are natural disasters, and wars are started by men, sometimes justly, sometimes not. This has been touched on in homilies by priests I have known, for example, our pastor railed a few years ago at the notion put forth by some Protestant ministers that a certain hurricane was punishment from God. He said this is not Catholic belief and there is danger in interpreting major events as signs from God.
So what are we to make of the Fatima statement? Was WW2 really a punishment from God? I am having trouble with this, because the Church declares Fatima worth of belief, yet at the same time, what was said there contradicts something from the catechism (as I have been taught it, anyway), and private revelations are not supposed to add anything new to the deposit of faith. Any enlightenment would be appreciated.
 
I don’t think there’s anything in Catholic doctrine that says God does not chastise using such means. Catholic doctrine does say His chastisements are always for a greater good (in fact, all He directly causes or permits in His Providence ultimately works for good in the end, and that includes natural disasters and wars–this all won’t be clear until the General Judgment when all is made manifest–right now its like seeing a pile of stones; we see the whole mosaic later).

I think what is dangerous is presuming those who suffer some catastrophe are somehow worse than myself (cf. Luke 13:4) and also presuming to know exactly why particular persons are being allowed to suffer or not–some may be saints suffering meritoriously for others, some may be among the elect, but being punished for their few sins in this life (since they will be rewarded forever in the next), some may be grave siners who have hardened their hearts to God and are being spared from committing more sins and worsening the torments of their damnation, etc. Likewise, those spared suffering may be reprobates receiving their reward for what little good they do in this life (since they will be punishe forever for their sins in the next), those being given consolation to strengthen their faith, etc., etc. That’s why we can’t judge , but that doesn’t mean God’s reasons are never revealed, as happened at Fatima.

By the way,this goes for any age, the “modern age” is not special.
 
I wouldn’t interpret it to say that it is a punishment, but rather a consequence of our own actions. Like, if you don’t stop eating McDonalds every day, you’ll gain a lot of weight. Gaining the weight isn’t a punishment from God, but a consequence of your actions. I would say the same is evident in this case.
 
Ultimately, the end result is the same.

Hmmmmmm Old Testament wise speaking, war was apparently used as a punishment for sin - yes? If s a precedent has been set - yes?
 
In allowing us freewill God also has to let us suffer the consequences, not only of our own actions but others as well. We are all linked by family and as the human race, which is why original sin affected all subsequent generations. God has His positive will to make things happen and His permissive will to allow things to happen. Much of the language used in the Old Testament prose makes us think that God inflicts suffering on us when in reality we are inflicting it on ourselves and others around and after us. It goes with God’s gift of freewill which is great if we use it wisely and like a curse if we don’t! God has to allow consequences of our actions or else freewill would be meaningless.
 
Nimzovik said:
Ultimately, the end result is the same.

Hmmmmmm Old Testament wise speaking, war was apparently used as a punishment for sin - yes? If s a precedent has been set - yes?
Click to expand...
Indeed–but it was my impression (and I may be wrong) that such things were deemed to stop after Christ.
 
Rachel126 said:
I’ve been reading a bit about Fatima lately, and am a bit concerned/confused about the second secret. In Sister Lucy’s own words (quoting Our Lady):
“If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father.”
(source: ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/Third_Secret/Fatima.htm)
This is generally thought to be a prediction of WW2.
ould be appreciated.
Click to expand...
My take…“a worse one will break out”…I take this to mean, because of man’s failure to cease offending God…a war will break out…but if man followed the message of the virgin…God would prevent the war to break out.

It means God would let the war occur, or would permit it. He permitted it.
 
Polycarp1 said:
In allowing us freewill God also has to let us suffer the consequences, not only of our own actions but others as well. We are all linked by family and as the human race, which is why original sin affected all subsequent generations. God has His positive will to make things happen and His permissive will to allow things to happen. Much of the language used in the Old Testament prose makes us think that God inflicts suffering on us when in reality we are inflicting it on ourselves and others around and after us. It goes with God’s gift of freewill which is great if we use it wisely and like a curse if we don’t! God has to allow consequences of our actions or else freewill would be meaningless.
Click to expand...
I agree with this. Let, according to the Fatima seers, this is not what Mary said–she very clearly told them that a worse war than the present one (WW1) would come in the future as punishment from God if people in general did not repent from their sinful ways. This doesn’t sound like war as a natural direct consequence of leaders making certain decisions–it sounds like this specific war was a direct punishment from God for sins of the people, and could have been avoided if people had done what Our Lady asked. Which again makes me question–was she stating that God would have interfered with the free will of those men whose actions we generally historically view as having started the war in the first place? I am trying to understand this but am having difficulty.
 
Rachel126 said:
Indeed–but it was my impression (and I may be wrong) that such things were deemed to stop after Christ.
Click to expand...
Ah, yes this is incorrect, these sorts of events of Divine punishment do continue after Christ, throughout Christian history. Our Lady of Fatima is not the only example, they are part of numerous other revelations.

You can find them due to occur too, prophecized in the New Testament in the book of Apocalypse (Revelation).

There is however, after Christ, more restraint in regard to divine punishments, rather than the virtue of immediate justice, they are more delayed, and various spiritual sacrifices connected to the Holy Mass and martyrs and repentance, mitigate or cause them not to occur.
 
To be clear God does directly inflict divine punishment – directly, not merely by withdrawing His influence.

This would apply to the virtue of justice, as well as other virtues, medicinal reasons, etc.
 
God still chastises–in fact, you should worry if He doesn’t:

Hebrews 12: [3] For think diligently upon him that endured such opposition from sinners against himself; that you be not wearied, fainting in your minds. [4] For you have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin: [5] And you have forgotten the consolation, which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. [6] For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. [7] Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? [8] But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. [9] Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live? [10] And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification. [11] Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield, to them that are exercised by it, the most peaceable fruit of justice.
 
I’m also very interested in Mary’s messages at Fatima, and other places too. I believe that God uses natural disasters and allows wars to occur because we, as the human race, are not being obedient to Him. I read some where that another thing Mary said at Fatima was that a new fashion in feminine clothing is coming, and that this fashion will be offensive to God. I think we all know what that meant. Women accepted these new fashions greatly, and they have lead us to more and more kinds of sin. So whenever Mary says God is greatly offended by us, I have no trouble believing this.

I live in an area that was hardest hit by the super storm known as Sandy in Oct of 2012. I live in this area about 55 years, and nothing as bad as Sandy ever happened before. There was a storm almost as bad, and it was in 1938. I have now found out, by looking into Mary’s prophesies, that the lights in the sky that came before the next great war was in 1938. The same year as the last great storm in my area. But Sandy was even worse. Is this just one big coincidence? I say no.

After the storm last year, I started telling people about God more than I did before the storm. I know that storm was a warning from God that we all need to stop sinning so much. If we don’t, even worse things will keep happening. Of course me saying this makes many people not like me very much. But I can’t stop telling this to everyone I meet. I know it’s the truth. And I fear for what’s coming next.
 
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