Feeling the Holy Spirit at Non-denominational church

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So…what is it that you are trying to do?
Are you wanting to convince him that how he feels is “wrong” or “bad”?.
I don’t think so at all, but I do think it’s important to point out to people that emotionalism is not the same as religion and is not the reason that we participate in our religion.

Good and bad feelings are a very changeable by product of events in our lives.

If we are feeling low one day does that mean that the Holy Spirit is absent in our life? I have always thought that the early church during that first 3 centuries of persecution must have had a much better grasp on this.

If we are getting persecuted and murdered for our faith, does that mean that we are worse sinners or that God doesn’t love us and has abandoned us? Again, I think that the early church had this down better than we do today and it’s something that we need to work to recapture…especially since our society if rapidly heading back into the same sort of irreligious neo-pagan thinking and morality which is directly at odds with our Catholic faith.
 
God can, and does bring us joy through our worship of Him. Why wouldn’t it be a joyful, happy, pleasant thing to Worship our God?

I also understand the more somber approach Catholics have (sorry if that’s not the right word). They are quieter and contemplate on God as they take the Eucharist or sit and pray. The music is good for some, but not for all.

The issue is that Catholics look at Evangelical ‘rock’ music backwards. Some Catholics think that Evangelicals go to Church to feel good. No. We go to Church to Worship God, and that makes us feel good; how could it not? We don’t hear an inspirational speaker to be inspired by his words, but rather the truth of God being spoken brings us joy.

If I go to an Aerosmith concert then it’s to enjoy the music. If I go to Church it’s to enjoy God’s presence through music. God brings us joy, our praise of Him makes us want to sing and be joyful. And God LOVES a new song sung towards Him, by many different means.

Psalm 150:1 Praise the LORD! Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens!

2 Praise him for his mighty deeds; praise him according to his excellent greatness!

3 Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp!

4 Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe!

5 Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD! Praise the LORD!
 
The Holy Spirit is a Person, not an emotion. The Holy Spirit is a Divine Person, too. He is not a drug which we take to feel more in-tune with God. He is not an aphrodisiac to get us high on feelings. To “feel” the Holy Spirit anywhere is either a heart-attack coming on, or the temptations of the demons. No one can feel a spirit, nor touch God. Feelings are in the nerves and emotions are in the heart.

What is God, for the jumping and falling non-denominational charismatics and Christian-Rockers? Is God even a “who” anymore, for them? The criteria of “feeling” the Holy Spirit, and not being “bored” - like at a Catholic Church - are not valid criteria for discerning the Truth. The Holy Spirit surely moves in all places, for He whispers where He wills… but to think that some non-denominational rock-band-worship Protestants are containing the fullness of the Holy Spirit because of a mere feeling? No!

Your brother-in-law doesn’t realize that we know we have the Holy Spirit when we have joy: simple joy that leads to self-sacrifice, giving up of the Self to others, and service of the Church. The feeling that banishes “boredom” and leads to having more “fun” at a worship service does not lead to real Christian ministry, discipline, or asceticism.

The most profound work in all history wasn’t fun; it was certainly long, laborious, “boring”, and had only a feeling of agony. I am, of course, referring to the saving crucifixion of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Where was His “feeling” of the Spirit? He asked God why He had abandoned Him. Now there’s real sacrifice!
I could only humbly suggest I think your were doing well but appears to devolve into feelings, be it they are truth. So just for example, and we could all agree or not, that we are responsible for our feelings and how quick we are to judge them and determine truth?
for example…
What is God, for the jumping and falling non-denominational charismatics and Christian-Rockers? Is God even a “who” anymore, for them? The criteria of “feeling” the Holy Spirit, and not being “bored” - like at a Catholic Church - are not valid criteria for discerning the Truth. The Holy Spirit surely moves in all places, for He whispers where He wills… but to think that some non-denominational rock-band-worship Protestants are containing the fullness of the Holy Spirit because of a mere feeling? No!
OK, but with this in mind, which is consistent in all the posts and I agree…
The Holy Spirit surely moves in all places,
So as the Pope states, we can’t tame the Holy Spirit, to paraphrase, but by the same token no one else can either.

OK, so this…
What is God, for the jumping and falling non-denominational charismatics and Christian-Rockers? Is God even a “who” anymore, for them? The criteria of “feeling” the Holy Spirit, and not being “bored” - like at a Catholic Church - are not valid criteria for discerning the Truth. The Holy Spirit surely moves in all places, for He whispers where He wills… but to think that some non-denominational rock-band-worship Protestants are containing the fullness of the Holy Spirit because of a mere feeling? No!
But, the Holy Spirit can convict whom He wills.

So what can we summarize if this is the truth? Or if we are to say we have the fullness of truth in the Church, then that doesn’t mean there isn’t truth elsewhere, it means the fullness of truth is in the Catholic Catholic. The fullness of Truth is always in the Holy Spirit.

At the moment this is what I’m reading.
 
As one poster (or several) pointed out, praising God is a great thing, and that is what I have see at these non-denominational Churches. I do not want to hinder that in anyone.

What concerns me is, if we can use the metaphor of a tree, the roots of these churches are very shallow. They seem to be rooted in the Spirit, but man is fickle and if up rooting is easy then man is likely to do so.

Man and his “feelings” are fickle, but the Spirit is not. The Trinity is constant in its love for us, and I think that God deserves a consistency that we are unable to give Him. But the Catholic Church represents and provides an avenue for that consistency.

I am just looking for a way to talk to a man who is rooted in the Bible and basing his relationship with God purely on feelings about everything the Catholic Church has to offer.

There have been some really good angles mentioned. I appreciate the brainstorm.
 
As one poster (or several) pointed out, praising God is a great thing, and that is what I have see at these non-denominational Churches.

What concerns me is, if we can use the metaphor of a tree, the roots of these churches are very shallow. They seem to be rooted in the Spirit, but man is fickle and if up rooting is easy then man is likely to do so.

Man and his “feelings” are fickle, but the Spirit is not.

I am just looking for a way to talk to a man who is rooted in the Bible and basing his relationship with God purely on feelings about everything the Catholic Church has to offer.
.
probably the better description is – recognizing the spiritual “anointing” that is present- in non catholic - assembly’s

(and no it is not a “feeling” ) it is just the natural mind – recognizing – a spiritual presence

and when anointed people hang out with other anointed people – then everyone is blessed with the spiritual presence-

Being filled with the Holy Spirit, however, is not a once-for-all experience. … characterizes the life of the Christian who is “being filled” constantly and continually?

1 Samuel 19:20-24English Standard Version (ESV)

20 Then Saul sent messengers to take David, and

when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as head over them,

1… the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied. 21 When it was told Saul,

2… he sent other messengers, and they also prophesied.

3…And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they also prophesied.

22 Then he himself went to Ramah and came to the great well that is in Secu.

And he asked, “Where are Samuel and David?”

And one said, “Behold, they are at Naioth in Ramah.”

23 And he went there to Naioth in Ramah.

4…And the Spirit of God came upon him also, and as he went he prophesied until he came to Naioth in Ramah.

24 And he too stripped off his clothes,

5…and he too prophesied before Samuel and lay naked all that day and all that night. Thus it is said, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”
 
Hello all,

My brother-in-law and I have been having an ongoing conversation about Christianity. He is sola scriptura and non-denominational.
A contradiction of terms already 😃
D:
He recently found a church he likes because “I really feel the Holy Spirit there.” His wife is Catholic and he goes with her once in a while to mass, but references how boring it can be (along with the other standard grievances non-Catholic Christians have) and has said that this new church of his is “definitely not boring.”
He’s shopping around for emotionalism. He doesn’t have the knowledge of what the mass is.
D:
Some other things he mentioned about what he likes about this church:
  • The music is more modern - like a rock concert
  • People from the church are always going on missions
  • It was formed when two other churches came together and “people just started joining from all other”. This is a major sticking point for his because he believes that Christianity has been split up by the devil and evidence of the Holy Spirit is when people just start following . . . The Spirit I guess.
He recognizes where division comes from. That’s good. It’s a starting point that is already agreed on. Therefore, Work with that. Work backwards from his church he found. Ask who gave any of these organizations the authority to do what they did? As Newman said, to go deep in history is to cease being protestant. Meaning, to validat his point, Satan had his way with all the division we call protestantism no matter the stripe. Then show him from the beginning the only Church Our Lord established and gave all His promises to. Here’s a quick history of the first 400 years from Christ, fully documented with evidence easily found. #34
D:
On conversations have been cordial and I have been trying to play it slow since I have a tendency to come on as aggressive in these matters. I listen patiently and intently to what he has to say.

The thing is, I am ready to start talking seriously.
:cool:
D:
My question is this: He has invited me to this church (which I am not all that worried about because I have attended churches like it when I was just coming back to the Christ after a stint of atheism) and I see this as an opportunity to open up some serious, critical dialogue with him. The thing is, I have no idea how to address certain things he has attached himself to, such as “I really feel the Holy Spirit in this church but not the Catholic Church” or “I am not bored at this church like I am at the Catholic Church.”
start out by showing him where the mass is in scripture #4 and the consequences for deliberately missing mass on Sunday.

As Our Lord said so passionately and clearly teaching on the Eucharist John 6:51-58

That’s not a suggestion it is a command. No Protestant no matter the stripe, has the Eucharist. They can’t. They have no valid ordinations.
D:
Does anyone have any insight on how I might approach this topic when the time comes? I don’t know why, but I really want to get this right with him and so I want to be prepared when it comes up.

Thank you for reading.
There are a ton of resources available.

I have no doubt that when the right time comes you’ll recognize it. I use the phrase that follows all the time when I’m in faith discussions with non Catholic friends. Sometimes I need more time to think. So I say

Good question. You deserve a better answer than the one I can give you off the cuff. How about if I get back to you on that tommorrow.

That way you validate the importance of their question enough to give them a quality response, and you have an automatic open door to get back with the answer to their question.
 
I know I’ll probably get a lot of bad reviews on my comments here but I will do it regardless. 😉

I am a practicing Roman Catholic from a small rural area in the deep south. We have maybe 15 show up for Mass on Saturday and twice that many on a good Sunday morning. There is no CCD program for the older youth at the church. We have no Knights of Columbus, no Altar Society, we have no ministries, nothing. The music we have at mass is a recording, beautiful but still, its a recording and we are thankful to have that.

I have always been a very spiritual person and was raised in a strict Catholic environment. I have attended protestant worship services. I have no doubt whatsoever that God is there as well. I do believe the Holy Spirit is alive and active in “some” of these churches. I base this on the Fruits of the Spirit that I have witnessed first hand.

Likewise, I also have no doubt that Catholics are under attack in the church. Not just the authority of the church itself but right here at home, in our own church communities. Turmoil, confusion, and struggles take the focus away from worship. If the music is bad or so high pitched that no one can sing with it, yes it takes the focus away from where it should be. If the priest doesn’t give a good homily or makes too many jokes it does take away from the worship. We, as Catholics, all know the Lord is there, no matter what goes on and yes we should be able to find Him there and worship Him regardless of any distractions. But we are human and things do distract us. Many need help to ‘wake up’.

When we have the same music that no one can sing to every single week, a homily that wasn’t very well thought out, or very little fellowship or enrichment, it does make it difficult to stay focused and encouraged.

Just because we are catholic this does not mean our church is immune to temptations and attacks by the devil. This can come in subtle form such as being bored or distracted during Mass. I have to admit, it is much harder to be bored or distracted in some protestant churches. I think we both have something we can learn from each other.

In some protestant churches they sing the praises of God with hand clapping music, everyone (even us frogs) can sing to. This builds up something inside us, a sort of excitement and hunger for God. Then they have a preacher speak about a subject that really touches close to home. They aren’t reading the same words over and over again.

They are concentrating and intently listening to the Word of God. They give testimony about who was injured or hurt and have been healed. They make it personal. They raise their hands high in the air as if to surrender their will to Him. They aren’t scared, they don’t care what people think of them. They just honestly want to be closer to God. They want the Holy Spirit to come to them, to live inside of them, to move in them and call them to do His will. They are eager and ready to accept whatever the Lord wants of them. Then at the end of the service the preacher calls them to the altar to be prayed for. He calls them to come ask God for forgiveness, to take that leap of faith out of the safety of their pews and to stand up for God or kneel before him. There is a lot of repentance, renewal, praise, and worship. It can be an incredible renewing and refreshing experience.

When I attend services like this, how I wish our little Catholic church could taste just a small portion of the hunger for the Lord these people have found. At the same time, I think how sad it is for these God fearing people do not know Jesus in the Eucharist. What an incredible worship service is would be if it followed the Mass! I hear thats what a Catholic Charismatic Mass is like, but sadly, I have not had the opportunity to attend one. 😦

DanielJT, if your brother-in-law is so rooted in the Bible maybe you should start your conversation with him discussing the origin of the Bible. Where did it come from? How is their bible different from ours and why?

There is no doubt that some protestant churches do welcome the Holy Spirit much better than some catholic churches do. I know for a fact if you raise your hand and say Amen out of order in our little church, someone is likely to whack you over the head with a missalette .

The links Gary gave for the “Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth” article was spot on!

Not to take away from the original question, but I attend Mass every week and most weeks also go to worship service at a protestant church. I am well aware that the official teachings of the catholic church have changed to not only allow this but to encourage it, or at least thats my understanding.

So maybe instead of trying to make your brother-in-law pick between one or the other, perhaps you can show him how to get more out of his religious experiences at Mass. Do you have a charismatic Mass anywhere near you?

Peace & Blessings!
 
I know I’ll probably get a lot of bad reviews on my comments here but I will do it regardless. 😉

I am a practicing Roman Catholic from a small rural area in the deep south. We have maybe 15 show up for Mass on Saturday and twice that many on a good Sunday morning. There is no CCD program for the older youth at the church. We have no Knights of Columbus, no Altar Society, we have no ministries, nothing. The music we have at mass is a recording, beautiful but still, its a recording and we are thankful to have that.
Have you talked to your pastor about helping to begin some of these things there?
Not to take away from the original question, but I attend Mass every week and most weeks also go to worship service at a protestant church. I am well aware that the official teachings of the catholic church have changed to not only allow this but to encourage it, or at least thats my understanding.
So maybe instead of trying to make your brother-in-law pick between one or the other, perhaps you can show him how to get more out of his religious experiences at Mass.You might want to check your facts my friend. The following responses are from the staff apologists here at Catholic Answers.
I believe that the best response to these things is for Catholics to do all they can to make the Mass the most reverent and vital thing in their lives and to build the church up with that. Do you have Eucharistic Adoration? You might ask for it because I have heard of many parishes like yours that have been wonderfully changed and revitalized by it.

Having wasted about 35 years of my life in n-C communities where what you described is routine and even having been a deacon is one, I can attest that much of that outward trapping is less authentic than it appears. In many cases it proved to be a sham when one gets to know the people and discover the moral wrecks their lives actually were. 😦

In the end, it’s not the external things that indicate spiritual life, but the internal life in Christ that manifests itself in our daily lives…and the depth of our conversion is what makes all the difference.
 
This sounds like a “milk vs. meat” problem. It’s healthy for a “new” fervent Christian to be interested and drawn along by feelings. God often gives us spiritual feelings (“consolations”) when He is trying to get us to listen to Him. This is often compared to babies drinking milk, or kids drinking milk sweetened with honey.

Later on, God gets tougher with us because we need to grow up. We need meat instead of milk, and there aren’t as many consolations and happy feelings for most people. This is normal, but many people don’t know this; so they lose their faith at this point.

Since this guy was not raised Catholic and hasn’t even been Baptized, he’s not used to feeling God’s graces on a regular basis (another reason he’d be so impressed at his current church!), and he probably doesn’t understand the structure of Mass. You might want to give him a book or a talk about the Mass that points up its Biblical and ecstatic nature, like Scott Hahn’s book, The Lamb’s Supper.

On the more practical side, you might see if anybody is doing anything “special” during Advent in your area, like a candlelight Rorate Mass, or Vespers, or Stations of the Cross. (Or you might invite him to Midnight Mass at Christmas, although that’s a judgment call.) Remember that we Catholics have emotional devotions too, and it might be a bridge.

Sigh. Sorry this wasn’t much help; but just don’t expect the guy to run before he can walk, spiritually. Be positive and let him know you’re happy he’s doing Christian things.
 
Hello all,

My brother-in-law and I have been having an ongoing conversation about Christianity. He is sola scriptura and non-denominational.

He recently found a church he likes because “I really feel the Holy Spirit there.” His wife is Catholic and he goes with her once in a while to mass, but references how boring it can be (along with the other standard grievances non-Catholic Christians have) and has said that this new church of his is “definitely not boring.”

Some other things he mentioned about what he likes about this church:
  • The music is more modern - like a rock concert
  • People from the church are always going on missions
  • It was formed when two other churches came together and “people just started joining from all other”. This is a major sticking point for his because he believes that Christianity has been split up by the devil and evidence of the Holy Spirit is when people just start following . . . The Spirit I guess.
On conversations have been cordial and I have been trying to play it slow since I have a tendency to come on as aggressive in these matters. I listen patiently and intently to what he has to say.

The thing is, I am ready to start talking seriously.

My question is this: He has invited me to this church (which I am not all that worried about because I have attended churches like it when I was just coming back to the Christ after a stint of atheism) and I see this as an opportunity to open up some serious, critical dialogue with him. The thing is, I have no idea how to address certain things he has attached himself to, such as “I really feel the Holy Spirit in this church but not the Catholic Church” or “I am not bored at this church like I am at the Catholic Church.”

Does anyone have any insight on how I might approach this topic when the time comes? I don’t know why, but I really want to get this right with him and so I want to be prepared when it comes up.

Thank you for reading.
I would ask him to tell you where their worship service came from. Who invented it. Ask him to show you where the first 1500 years of christianity their worship service was practiced. Then ask him what happens when the “feel good feeling” of their service no longer feels good. Then ask him who is supposed to be the object of their worship service, God or people feeling good? Then I would show him the Catholic Mass as the NT perfection of the OT Jewish Passover meal.
 
re: feeling the holy spirit
When I left the church for a while in my youth, I came back to my church that I was
brought up in (catholic) and asked those same questions. (because I had drifted over
to the more active non-denominational churches) but when I came back I asked a
priest and he said that the catholic church is not all about feelings. It is the mind,
and it is the soul and it is the heart. That was a good enough answer for me. I
realized that I was getting the entire picture and not just a piece of the puzzle.
We have the whole truth not part of it.
 
Have you talked to your pastor about helping to begin some of these things there?You might want to check your facts my friend.
Yes, I have talked to our pastor and he is not interested in letting anyone inside our little catholic circle if they are not catholic. He is not interested in expanding or reaching out to anyone else. He wants to keep the catholic youth secluded… all 4 of them. Catholics can only do what their priest allows them to do. I have tried, I have offered repeatedly but the answer is always the same. We do have Eucharistic Adoration for a few hours once a week. The church is usually empty.

I agree that some protestant churches do appear to be one thing when really the people are quite different but that is true of some catholic churches as well. All in all, I agree that one should be well grounded in their catholic faith before visiting protestant services.

And I did check my facts. 🙂
There is no ban against a Catholic attending a Protestant service, although a Catholic may not receive communion if made available. This is largely a consequence of the invalid ordination of ministers attempting to confect the Sacrament. Canon 844 of the Code of Canon Law says that Catholic members of the Christian faithful may receive sacraments only from Catholic ministers. Further, the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains that there can be no Eucharistic intercommunion between the Church and Protestant communities (no. 1400).
Participation in common prayer without taking part in a communion rite is an act of true ecumenism promoting unity without denying the truths of the one true faith and should not likely be a cause of scandal. The Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, in its 1993 Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism, encourages such participation:
In liturgical celebrations taking place in other churches and ecclesial communities, Catholics are encouraged to take part in the psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach (no. 118).
However, the Catholic must not think of the worship service as an addition or substitution for Mass. It is important that the Catholic does not give the impression that there is no real separation between Catholics and Protestants. Protestant services must not be attended in order for the Catholic to experience feelings of fellowship or closeness to God.

ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur198.htm
cuf.org/2005/07/attending-a-protestant-service/
ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=441348&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur198.htm
 
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