Feeling uncomfortable with the readings from Maccabees

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The first readings this week are taken from the book of Maccabees. I have never read this book before. The first thing that stroke me was the swine’s flesh. Then on Thursday, the reading was taken from 1 Maccabees 2:15-29.

Why do we have such readings in Church?
 
Maybe we are supposed to feel uncomfortable about the readings in Macabees. From hearing the readings and prayerfully reflecting; I have concluded we are being reminded that we should be following God and not man.
 
The first readings this week are taken from the book of Maccabees. I have never read this book before. The first thing that stroke me was the swine’s flesh. Then on Thursday, the reading was taken from 1 Maccabees 2:15-29.

Why do we have such readings in Church?
When you mention the “swine’s flesh” are you talking about the reference to when they are being asked to eat pork? What translation reads “swine’s flesh” and where. Doing a search through this weeks readings, I didn’t see “swine’s flesh” in any of them so I just want to know what part you are having trouble with.

The reason we read them is first because they are the inspired Word of God. Second, these stories in particular provide amazing examples of faith and perseverance in the covenant. We are called to follow in their example, sacrificing ourselves rather than violate one command of our God. We can eat pork, true, but you can insert any teaching of the Church in its place and we are called to remain faithful to the teaching, even unto death. We fall short, but it is what we are called to and these people provide us great examples just as any martyr should.

Read Hebrews 11:1-12:2 for why we read these stories.

God Bless.
 
Can you give us more information? Are you uncomfortable because of the Jewish laws being mentioned?

We read Maccabees because it’s supposed to be an example to us about being strong for our faith under persecution…which is becoming more common today.

If the Jewish laws are making you uncomfortable, just read Jesus’ words at Matthew 5:17-18 and then read Acts 10:9-15. I think you’re supposed to understand that first before going to mass and hearing Maccabees. 🙂
 
Maybe we are supposed to feel uncomfortable about the readings in Macabees. From hearing the readings and prayerfully reflecting; I have concluded we are being reminded that we should be following God and not man.
I agree with you. In following the directive to not eat pork, a believing Jew was showing his total obedience and love for God. It was the king and his followers who were trying to force them to give their homage to the king, luring them with gold and fine things to abandon their faith, eat pork, and offer incense to the pagan gods.

They became martyrs for their faith, rather than disobey God. They chose eternal life rather than a temporary comfortable one. Now they reign with Him forever!
 
The first readings this week are taken from the book of Maccabees. I have never read this book before. The first thing that stroke me was the swine’s flesh. Then on Thursday, the reading was taken from 1 Maccabees 2:15-29.

Why do we have such readings in Church?
You’re not very clear on what you are uncomfortable with.

Why exactly do you object to mentioning pork in church?

And what is your problem with 1 Maccabees 2:15-29? You need to be clearer–otherwise we waste a lot of posts going back and forth.

The Daily Office reading schedule in the Episcopal Church also includes Maccabees at this point in the church year (in year 1). This is an important source for what Protestants call the “intertestamental” period–explaining what happened between the Exile and the time of Jesus. The Maccabees and their rebellion against pagans for the sake of the Torah are absolutely central for understanding Jesus’ time. This is also when the doctrine of resurrection became very important for Jews.

I have really stressed the Maccabees this time around in my intro Bible class, because my Protestant students know nothing about them and this really limits their understanding of the New Testament.

Never mind that they are intrinsically interesting in the same way that other Old Testament figures are. I don’t get what your problem is.

Edwin
 
Sorry for not being vivid.

The readings I receive come from the Navarre Bible.

2 Maccabees 6:18
[18] Eleazar, one of the scribes in high position, a man now advanced in age
and of noble presence, was being forced to open his mouth to eat swine’s flesh.

For some reason, I took that to be raw flesh. Pork didn’t come to my mind.

Anyways this is what troubles me–the “righteous killings”:

1 Maccabees 2:23-25
[23] When he had finished speaking these words, a Jew came forward in the
sight of all to offer sacrifice upon the altar in Modein, according to the king’s
command. [24] When Mattathias saw it, be burned with zeal and his heart was
stirred. He gave vent to righteous anger; he ran and killed him upon the altar.
[25] At the same time he killed the king’s officer who was forcing them to sacri-
fice, and he tore down the altar.

In the commentaries, it is written:

Both Phinehas and Mattathias were motivated by zeal for the Lord and for his
Law (vv. 24, 26-27; Num 25:11).* Although the way they expressed their zeal was
understandable only in that distant context* (it would not he acceptable today),
their zeal for God and the things of God is still something to be imitated (cf. Ori-
gen, “Commentarii in Epistulam ad Romanos”, 8, 1).

Why are the killings even understandable in that distant context?
 
The first readings this week are taken from the book of Maccabees. I have never read this book before. The first thing that stroke me was the swine’s flesh. Then on Thursday, the reading was taken from 1 Maccabees 2:15-29.

Why do we have such readings in Church?
The swine’s flesh he is talking about is from wednesdays readings about the 7 brothers who died for not eating pork. Then on Thursday we read about how Mattathias resisted the officers of the king who were forcing them to violate their conscience. On Tuesday, we read about Eleazar who would not eat meat sacrificed to idols and was killed for it. All these readings have in common the portrayal of the righteous man who is willing to die for what he believes in. They were willing to die rather than to offend God. In the martyrs we see this as well. They would rather die than deny Christ.

Being boiled alive is offensive. So is being crucified. Yet, despite it’s horrible nature, the crucifixion of Christ shows truly the depth of self-sacrificing love that God has for us. The martyrs in turn show the depth of love they have for God.
 
Sorry for not being vivid.

The readings I receive come from the Navarre Bible.

2 Maccabees 6:18
[18] Eleazar, one of the scribes in high position, a man now advanced in age
and of noble presence, was being forced to open his mouth to eat swine’s flesh.

For some reason, I took that to be raw flesh. Pork didn’t come to my mind.

Anyways this is what troubles me–the “righteous killings”:

1 Maccabees 2:23-25
[23] When he had finished speaking these words, a Jew came forward in the
sight of all to offer sacrifice upon the altar in Modein, according to the king’s
command. [24] When Mattathias saw it, be burned with zeal and his heart was
stirred. He gave vent to righteous anger; he ran and killed him upon the altar.
[25] At the same time he killed the king’s officer who was forcing them to sacri-
fice, and he tore down the altar.

In the commentaries, it is written:

Both Phinehas and Mattathias were motivated by zeal for the Lord and for his
Law (vv. 24, 26-27; Num 25:11).* Although the way they expressed their zeal was
understandable only in that distant context* (it would not he acceptable today),
their zeal for God and the things of God is still something to be imitated (cf. Ori-
gen, “Commentarii in Epistulam ad Romanos”, 8, 1).

Why are the killings even understandable in that distant context?
He killed men that were forcing Jews to violate their commandments and sacrifice to idols. He did this out of zeal for God. In other words, he did not want to break God’s commandments. He did not want Jews to be forced to commit idolatry. Why would you have a problem with that? By doing so he made himself a target risking his own life. He was the start of the Jewish resistance. And, eventually because of him the Jewish temple was restored through his son Judas Maccabee who led an army of Jewish dissidents to victory over the Seleucid dynasty in guerrilla warfare. The Jewish festival of Hanukkah celebrates the re-dedication of the Temple following Judah Maccabee’s victory over the Seleucids.

According to Rabbinic tradition, the victorious Maccabees could only find a small jug of oil that had remained uncontaminated by virtue of a seal, and although it only contained enough oil to sustain the Menorah for one day, it miraculously lasted for eight days, by which time further oil could be procured.
 
He killed men that were forcing Jews to violate their commandments and sacrifice to idols. He did this out of zeal for God. In other words, he did not want to break God’s commandments. He did not want Jews to be forced to commit idolatry. Why would you have a problem with that? By doing so he made himself a target risking his own life. He was the start of the Jewish resistance. And, eventually because of him the Jewish temple was restored through his son Judas Maccabee who led an army of Jewish dissidents to victory over the Seleucid dynasty in guerrilla warfare. The Jewish festival of Hanukkah celebrates the re-dedication of the Temple following Judah Maccabee’s victory over the Seleucids.

According to Rabbinic tradition, the victorious Maccabees could only find a small jug of oil that had remained uncontaminated by virtue of a seal, and although it only contained enough oil to sustain the Menorah for one day, it miraculously lasted for eight days, by which time further oil could be procured.
Building on this important post by Carl, it is important to understand the history around the whole story of Judas Maccabeus and the rebellion.

Alexander the Great had set out to hellenize the world. He wanted to conquor the world and make it Greek. Along the way, he adopted practices from other cultures which he thought added to Greek culture. But when he God to Jerusalem, he was so impressed with what he saw, that he left the Jews alone. He made them military subjects but did not try to change their religion or culture at all. He was that impressed.

After Alexander the Great died, his lands were split up among various provicial rulers - I think there were 12 of them. The one who ruled the area which included Jerusalem was viscious, and ruled with an iron fist. He made himself out to be God, and demanded complete obedience. Maccabees resisted, and refused to eat the pork at the command of this king, instead obeying the Mosaic law. He was given an ultimatum - eat or be executed on the spot. He chose not to eat and sealed his own fate. Upon seeing a man sacrifice to the faslse god of the king, he simply lost his templer and killed the man. This was the start of the rebellion against the foreign king which Carl discusses above.

Much of that Greek culture was around at the time of Jesus. Paul loved the olympic style games that were held. But we see in the book of Maccabees how the Jews were polluted. It even says that some had operations to cover up the fact that they were circumcized!

In the story we see the victory of God over a false God. We se the defeat of a foreign king and the establishment of a Jewish king. The 2 books of Maccabees fill a gap in Jewish history which some bibles don’t cover, the time from between the Prophet Daniel and the coming of Christ. There is 490 years of history there and the books of Maccabees tell us what happened then. They are important books, books which point to Christ and well worth reading.

-Tim-
 
For some reason, I took that to be raw flesh. Pork didn’t come to my mind.
If you think it being cooked (which it probably was, because it was a sacrifice) makes it less disturbing, then you haven’t gotten the point of the story:D.
Anyways this is what troubles me–the “righteous killings”:

Why are the killings even understandable in that distant context?
Depends on what you mean by “understandable.” I find it very understandable that a zealous Jew would kill an apostate, as well as the royal official who was forcing Jews to commit idolatry. But perhaps we mean different things by the word.

Was it wrong in an absolute sense–contrary to natural law? I’m not sure it was. It is certainly not the way that followers of Jesus ought to respond to persecution. And obviously when Muslims today kill those they consider to be apostates (not that all Muslims condone this, but it’s mostly Muslims who practice it–Christians and Jews have pretty much abandoned the practice), we are horrified. But is it objectively wrong to kill an apostate? In practice, I certainly oppose it, because many “apostates” may be sincerely following their consciences, and the person in Maccabees was coerced by fear and not fully responsible for his actions.

But is deliberately abandoning the true God for idols intrinsically worthy of death? Yes, I think it probably is. We don’t advocate carrying out such a penalty today because we recognize that this crime, unlike others such as murder, depends in a peculiar manner on one’s intention, which cannot be discerned, and also because it has proven a horrible mistake in many ways for the Church to avail itself of the “temporal sword” to back up its spiritual discipline. But I wouldn’t describe either of these killings as the killings of innocent people, which is intrinsically wrong.

I am far more bothered by the wholesale slaughter of men, women and children described in Joshua and 1 Samuel than I am by the violence of the Maccabees in response to brutal persecution by a pagan empire.

Edwin
 
If you think it being cooked (which it probably was, because it was a sacrifice) makes it less disturbing, then you haven’t gotten the point of the story:D.

Depends on what you mean by “understandable.” I find it very understandable that a zealous Jew would kill an apostate, as well as the royal official who was forcing Jews to commit idolatry. But perhaps we mean different things by the word.

Was it wrong in an absolute sense–contrary to natural law? I’m not sure it was. It is certainly not the way that followers of Jesus ought to respond to persecution. And obviously when Muslims today kill those they consider to be apostates (not that all Muslims condone this, but it’s mostly Muslims who practice it–Christians and Jews have pretty much abandoned the practice), we are horrified. But is it objectively wrong to kill an apostate? In practice, I certainly oppose it, because many “apostates” may be sincerely following their consciences, and the person in Maccabees was coerced by fear and not fully responsible for his actions.

But is deliberately abandoning the true God for idols intrinsically worthy of death? Yes, I think it probably is. We don’t advocate carrying out such a penalty today because we recognize that this crime, unlike others such as murder, depends in a peculiar manner on one’s intention, which cannot be discerned, and also because it has proven a horrible mistake in many ways for the Church to avail itself of the “temporal sword” to back up its spiritual discipline. But I wouldn’t describe either of these killings as the killings of innocent people, which is intrinsically wrong.

I am far more bothered by the wholesale slaughter of men, women and children described in Joshua and 1 Samuel than I am by the violence of the Maccabees in response to brutal persecution by a pagan empire.

Edwin
For me, there is no doubt that reading certain books or passages of the OT can be disturbing.

What Mattathias did is similar to what Moses did (to the Egyptian). If prophet Hosea condemned the actions of Jacob (Hos 12:3 NAB), what more of the others?
 
I’m not sure if this is directly applicable, but this passage in the Book of Deuteronomy (ch. 13, v. 6-11; but the entire chapter is relevant to this discussion) may help us “modern readers” make sense of Mattathias’ act:

“If thy brother the son of thy mother, or thy son, or daughter, or thy wife that is in thy bosom, or thy friend, whom thou lovest as thy own soul, would persuade thee secretly, saying: Let us go, and serve strange gods, which thou knowest not, nor thy fathers,
Of all the nations round about, that are near or afar off, from one end of the earth to the other,
Consent not to him, hear him not, neither let thy eye spare him to pity and conceal him,
But thou shalt presently put him to death. Let thy hand be first upon him, and afterwards the hands of all the people.
With stones shall he be stoned to death: because he would have withdrawn thee from the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage:
That all Israel hearing may fear, and may do no more any thing like this.”

In other words, it was part of the Law given to Moses that, if a fellow Israelite - even if he was a loved one - encouraged others to follow idols or “strange gods”, he incurred the death sentence.

In the situation that prevailed in the time of the Maccabees, where a “Hellenizing” faction was usurping priestly offices on political grounds, and many Israelites “went over to the enemy”, it would have been difficult for such a sentence to have been passed “officially”. In this context - and also “that Israel might fear” - Mattathias passed sentence on the offender. Strictly legal? I don’t know. Morally justifiable? Certainly, especially within the terms of the spirit of Mosaic law.
 
For me, there is no doubt that reading certain books or passages of the OT can be disturbing.

What Mattathias did is similar to what Moses did (to the Egyptian).
Yes, and while I don’t think Christians should imitate either of these responses to oppression, I do think these actions are in a completely different category from murdering innocent people, and I don’t find them particularly “disturbing” as OT stories.

I like the maverick Anabaptist Hans Denck’s response to the Moses story you cited:
When Moses killed the Egyptian who was beating the Israelite, this was in a sense good, for his passion was for justice and against injustice. But if Moses had known and possessed perfect love, he would have given himself to be killed in place of his brother. But he would not have strangled the Egyptian, the enemy of his brother.
That would be my opinion of Mattathias as well.

Edwin
 
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