Feminism - the good and the bad

[Angel_Gabriel]

So I just started watching Mad Men on Netflix (I know, I know…I’m late to the game…raising kids does that to you I guess lol)…the amount of sexism (and racism) that went on is unbelievable! I mean, I had always heard that it was bad but, never having lived through it, it’s hard to imagine going to work and enduring that. And even being a stay at home mom seemed like it was harder than it is today. I know the show showcases a specific subset of the American demographic but after having talked and researched it, it seems like the attitudes portrayed in it were pretty spot on (and the smoking and booze at the office lol!). It is so surreal watching it…

Now I am honestly finding myself really sympathizing with second wave feminism…until of course it culminated in the whole abortion ruling. It seems that years and years of oppression of women ultimately lead them to go so far as to kill their own children! But I sort of understand how it got there…some of the ads from the 60s that I’ve found are just disgusting! The degradation of women is horrible. I thin that women were mislead by the birth control pill as a way to take charge of themselves but really they became slaves to something else…it’s nothing more than a ball and chain and I honestly have much more respect for NFP than I ever did before. ( I have always used NFP but have also always maintained the belief that it was a cross to bear…well perhaps but it also makes both spouses equal if it is used and practiced correctly.)

What are some of the good things that came out of second wave feminism? (Third wave feminism is something I just don’t get…it’s gone too far here, IMO) What were some of the bad? (abortion comes to mind…the Pill too, although not for helping regulate a dysfunctional cycle)

 

[Lou2U]

What are some of the good things that came out of second wave feminism?

The first regulations against sex discrimination in the workplace were introduced in the USA. More help for women who were victims of domestic violence. Awareness of marital rape and legislation against it, as well as challenging and repealing ‘marry-your-rapist’ laws.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Yes I think those are definitely good things that came out of it!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You need to remember that it is television and thus is somewhat exaggerated. Discrimination did go on, but it varied a lot depending on where you worked and the overall situation. The TV show needs to present a crisis a week; it won’t show the stories of women or others who were not having a lot of problems.

My mother and both of her sisters (my aunts) had long, good careers before and during the Mad Men era. One aunt was a nurse and my other aunt and my mom had government jobs. Both professions were good places to avoid a lot of the discrimination that went on. A lot of Jewish people and quite a few people of color also ended up working for the federal government because it offered them more opportunities than private firms that were anti-Semitic in those days.

I would note that my mother and aunts all managed to have long marriages and kids also. One of my aunts chose to keep working after she was married because I guess she either needed the money or liked the work or both. My mom and her other sister decided to quit and be SAHMs, their choice. My mom said she was tired of working by the time she married my dad (she had been working for about 17 years at that point) and was happy to stay home. When all the women in the 70s were making a big deal about going out to work she was sort of like “meh, been there, done that” - a lot of these other women had been married straight out of high school or something which was definitely NOT mom’s experience.

I would say just enjoy the show for what it is trying to be, namely a window into a different time. Don’t assume that every person’s experience was exactly like what you see on the show. Some were, some weren’t.

 

[JMMJ]

I remember working a government job in the late 70’s when women weren’t allowed to wear pants to work. So there is that!

 

[joyfulandactive]

I believe in prior decades (maybe before the 1970s) women had to get their husbands permission for all kind of financial decisions. They couldn’t apply for a loan for example without his permission. Also it was legal to sack a woman for sexist reasons such as if she got married, was pregnant or was sick due to pregnancy.

 

[TK421]

3rd wave feminism became soured because instead of rectifying sins that men could get away with, it instead wanted to emulate them.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I worked for a major pharmaceutical company in the 90s and wasn’t allowed to wear pants to work

 

[Lea101]

To answer the question really simply, I think the movement really helped in squashing general perceptions about women. It’s now ‘normal’ for most people -liberal or conservative–to believe that a woman could pursue a career, do well in a certain field and be paid the same.

I am generalizing it here to a more global context because I’m in South East Asia and the movement has its impact globally.

As for the bad, well the attitude that sex is a ‘right’: birth control, pre marital sex, sex work etc were all promoted. I think playboy started during that era, and a lot thought that more conservative views towards sex were oppressive to women.

 

[FiveLinden]

The first regulations against sex discrimination in the workplace were introduced in the USA

Were they? Is there source for this piece of US exceptionalism?

 

[glencor63]

Playboy Magazine was founded in 1953 by Hugh Hefner. He was raised a strict Methodist and received a really distorted view of human sexuality.

 

[joyfulandactive]

I really don’t think it’s fair to blame the Methodist church for Hugh Hefner’s free choice to use women’s bodies to become extremely rich. It’s amazing the bizarre justifications people come up with for behavior.

 

[glencor63]

I was a child in the 70s. The most important contribution of 2nd Wave Feminism is how it altered our perception of women’s roles. When I was a child it was commonplace to say, "fireman, “policeman”, or to view doctors as men, and nurses as women, and to automatically associate a leader/authority figure with being male. This has changed to such an extent that to hear policeman and fireman is as archaic as saying Consumption, instead of Tuberculosis. I distinctly remember watching an episode of, “Eight Is Enough” where the eldest sister encounters a professor that does not believe in women becoming doctors. 2nd Wave Feminism gave women career options heretofore closed to them. For women to pursue medicine, law, etc., took great courage. It was assumed that you would eventually marry and have children and this was all you wanted or needed. I would not want to live in a world where my gender was used to limit my talents and dreams.

*An aside: NFP is effective when husbands and wives both consent. In the past, a wife could be legally raped by her husband. A wife’s right to refuse sex was not recognized in law. This is why the birth control pill was so revolutionary. For the first time in history women could control their fertility. There was a real fear of childbirth for women that men never endured. Most women did not have lots of children because they wanted large families, but because there was no other option. The only effective birth control was periodic abstinence and most husbands were resistant to abstaining from sex for a prolonged period of time.

 

[glencor63]

Hugh Hefner was taught an extremely distorted view of sexuality from his parents, especially his mother which she learned in her puritanical childhood. There was also very little affection in the home. His only comfort was a stuffed bunny rabbit. Coincidence? Hugh Hefner’s mother later repented of how she raised him because of the spiritual/psychological damage it inflicted.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ch...-childhood-to-playboy-20170928-story,amp.html

 

[joyfulandactive]

I still don’t see how that justifies his objectification of women. He could receive healing from his past without behaving in the way he did. Otherwise we have no free will and we can always blame our actions on the past and others. There is a point where we become responsible for our own behavior and spiritual/emotional healing.

 

[glencor63]

I never said it justified objectifying women in the creation of Playboy Magazine. You’re making an assumption. I corrected the date of Playboy’s founding which was 1953, well before 2nd Wave Feminism and the birth control pill. I mentioned his upbringing because a child is the father of the man. It behooves parents to raise their children with love, affection, and a healthy view of human sexuality.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

You need to remember that it is television and thus is somewhat exaggerated.

Oh I do…I think it’s just a bit of a culture shock to actually SEE smoking and drinking in office.

a lot of these other women had been married straight out of high school or something which was definitely NOT mom’s experience.

Yeah that’s definitely a different experience than what goes on now for the most part.

I remember working a government job in the late 70’s when women weren’t allowed to wear pants to work.

I couldn’t imagine that lol! I wear scrubs or leggings and long baggy t shirts…couldn’t imagine HAVING to wear a skirt all the time!

When I was a child it was commonplace to say, "fireman, “policeman”,

I still do this…no matter if the person is female or male lol!

There was a real fear of childbirth for women that men never endured.

Amen to that!

The only effective birth control was periodic abstinence and most husbands were resistant to abstaining from sex for a prolonged period of time.

Yep, I see that played out on my own family’s history, sadly

 

[glencor63]

I say, “firefighter” and “police officer” as a matter of course. I’m unsure when my lexicon changed, but it’s been years since I used the terms of early childhood.

 

[ewohdrol]

I am hugely grateful to second wave feminism.

My mother worked in a bank in the late 70’s. Protocol at the time ensured that anyone who fell pregnant meant you automatically lost your job. Must open those jobs for younger single gals!

Feminism has allowed me to get a career in a field that I love and use my talents well (I’m in scientific research). It has allowed my husband to be the stay at home parent and still be entitled to the same government parenting benefits I would be entitled to (not in the USA). Feminism has allowed us to both take on these roles without judgement from most the community.

Feminism has allowed me the freedom to be financially dependent if I needed to be in the future (I don’t foresee this happening at all - but if I was suddently widowed for example, I would have the means to support myself).

I love that I am born in this era.

 

[Peeps]

I think a lot of people have less-than-stellar childhoods and suffer various effect of this during their lives. Most grow up and lead fairly normal and decent lives and even rise above their childhoods to become admired and accomplished citizens.

But very few people who have been raised “badly” grow up to start an international empire based on sex and naked women and 24-hour pleasure and indulgence. Hefner was a monster.