Finish the transgender argument

[JimG]

Here’s a solution. Let’s take these arguments to their logical conclusions. That is, if gender makes no difference, either because males and females are in all respects “equal,” or because gender is a “private matter,” then the logical conclusion seems to be to abolish any consideration of gender in athletics and have one team per sport per school, period. If gender identity should be no more of a consideration than race or creed, then let’s treat it on our athletic teams as we treat race or creed, which is to say by taking no notice of it and putting everyone on the same team. Let’s have none of this “Ridgemont High boys basketball” and “Ridgemont High girls basketball,” just “Ridgemont High basketball”; this would also apply to football, and track, and swimming, and so forth. Not only should this end the controversy, but it would save lots of money.

Finish the Transgender Argument - Crisis Magazine

 

[ZMystiCat]

Before pouncing like ravenous dogs, do consider that nothing I say here is an endorsement of secular gender ideology, abortion, etc. I just don’t think the article is making its point very well, even if I’m sure the author and I have similar views on these issues (e.g. abortion is wrong, gender dysphoria doesn’t mean you are the gender you feel you are, etc.)

gender is something one can choose on one’s own

I know that this doesn’t get talked about anywhere near as much as “choosing to be gay”, but transgender people don’t “choose” their gender, or at the very least they don’t see it that way. (There are some exceptions, but those seem rare these days.) Take a transwoman for instance. They have gender dysphoria, which isn’t a choice, and the current secular philosophy says that their feeling of being a woman means that they are one. Ergo, under the current philosophy, it isn’t a choice.

Now, you might disagree with that philosophy, and maybe under your philosophy they are choosing it. However, consider that that is the very matter under debate, it seems woefully premature to start talking as if the philosophy being discussed is false.

“Ridgemont High boys basketball” and “Ridgemont High girls basketball,” just “Ridgemont High basketball”

Maybe it is just because I tend to follow hockey, baseball, and college sports, but the idea of having different sports levels based on relative skill doesn’t strike me as odd. I could easily take this guy’s argument and say that instead of separating by gender it is just pure skill separation among the already-existing levels. Sure, that would still leave practically everyone in the NBA and NHL as men, but we’ve already had women compete in racing and golf at the highest level. I’d imagine you’d start seeing women in minor league baseball.

Actually, I’m wondering why this isn’t pushed for more. Not only does it given the highly skilled women a better chance at playing where there’s more focus, but it also gives people making arguments like those in the article a chance to point and say, “See, men and women are different! Women can’t compete at the highest level even when given the opportunity!”

What about the arts?

OK, I’ve already hinted at it as in the above, but I think this guy is being awfully presumptuous that this won’t take hold in the future. It’s not a matter of discussion now, but we’re still trying to work out how to deal with restrooms.

We could take this into other areas—for example, abortion. If you’re a man told by a woman that you should have no say in the matter because you’re a man, then just say that you’ve decided to identify as a woman and keep on arguing.

This doesn’t work under “my body, my choice”, which is really where the “men’s opinions don’t matter” comes in. Also, there’s the assumption that it’s all a choice again…

Anyways, I don’t think there’s anything better through the rest of the article.

 

[otjm]

The issue of an individual with gender dysphoria playing on the opposite sex’s team is already well under way, and the progressives who are so loud in supporting the right to “change sides” are either in such deep shock they are unable to respond, or they are ducking because it is patently clear the “emperor has no clothes”. and they cannot figure out how to handle the reality of their obfuscations.

It will take a bit of time, and some judges who are not politically correct, for this to work through the system, but work it will.

 

[otjm]

Not sure what you mean by “highest level”; but last I checked, the Olympics was still divided into men’s activities and women’s activities, based on the reality that in most instances, each competes at the “highest level” within their own gender.

I seriously doubt that any woman, for instance, is going to place sufficiently to compete against men in weight lifting;’ she may well compete with other women in the sport; but not in a gender mixed group.

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

My prayers are with all those in the transgender community. I hope they feel the love of Christ as they have human dignity which should never be ignored

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

I think a semi famous actor made some statements on how he would change his gender on how he felt on a given day or something like that.

 

[Finn]

They have gender dysphoria, which isn’t a choice, and the current secular philosophy says that their feeling of being a woman means that they are one. Ergo, under the current philosophy, it isn’t a choice.

Now, you might disagree with that philosophy, and maybe under your philosophy they are choosing it. However, consider that that is the very matter under debate, it seems woefully premature to start talking as if the philosophy being discussed is false.

It’s not woefully premature - it’s the crux of the entire issue and the conclusion that should be arrived at immediately. The philosophy is false, the logic is faulty and believing you are a particular anything doesn’t mean that you are.

 

[TK421]

In my experience, most Catholics or Christians with a college degree would readily accept the fact that transgender people feel a certain way towards their gender as a result of dysphoria.

Just like with people attracted to the same sex, that’s not really relevant to whether or not it is ethic to behave a certain way.

 

[Wozza]

Here’s a solution. Let’s take these arguments to their logical conclusions. That is, if gender makes no difference, either because males and females are in all respects “equal,” or because gender is a “private matter,” then the logical conclusion seems to be to abolish any consideration of gender in athletics and have one team per sport per school, period. If gender identity should be no more of a consideration than race or creed, then let’s treat it on our athletic teams as we treat race or creed, which is to say by taking no notice of it and putting everyone on the same team. Let’s have none of this “Ridgemont High boys basketball” and “Ridgemont High girls basketball,” just “Ridgemont High basketball”; this would also apply to football, and track, and swimming, and so forth. Not only should this end the controversy, but it would save lots of money.

Finish the Transgender Argument

You don’t seem to understand the matter. Unless that post was tongue in cheek…

 

[JimG]

If a man can declare himself a woman simply because he feels like it, then women’s sports is done. Already several biological males identifying as females have taken first and second place in several women’s sports events, displacing biological women.

 

[Dougbro1]

What it boils down to is one question: What determines truth? Facts or feelings?

 

[FaithRuir]

Transgender people are some of the worst victims of the “progressive” movement.

They’re suffering, confused, worried about bullying and struggling with their own identities. They tend to hate themselves for who they are and it’s awful.
Gender dysphoria is not something you choose, it’s a cross millions bear. And the liberal movement glorifies it, instead of saying “it’s okay, we can help you feel better”
They say “it’s okay, we’ll give you hormone treatments, and surgeries to promote it because it’s who you are”
Something else unfortunate about it is how many young people feel a need to have this kind of condition to feel more “special” and celebrated…

I’m unfortunately under-informed on the topic, so I can’t say much more, I wonder if any expert could chime in.

 

[KMC]

I know that this doesn’t get talked about anywhere near as much as “choosing to be gay”, but transgender people don’t “choose” their gender, or at the very least they don’t see it that way. (There are some exceptions, but those seem rare these days.) Take a transwoman for instance. They have gender dysphoria, which isn’t a choice, and the current secular philosophy says that their feeling of being a woman means that they are one. Ergo, under the current philosophy, it isn’t a choice.

Now, you might disagree with that philosophy, and maybe under your philosophy they are choosing it. However, consider that that is the very matter under debate, it seems woefully premature to start talking as if the philosophy being discussed is false.

This is not about philosophy, its about reality. the vast majority of all humans have either XX chromosome pairs or XY chromosome pairs, which makes them genetically female or male. (the remaining folks have some mutation that gives them XXX, XXY, etc) Your philosophy is irrelevant to that. You are what you are in reality, not whats in your mind.

Humans with XY chromosomes have genetic / hormonal differences that impact their development over time…making them, on average, structurally bigger, faster, stronger than a person born XX.

Maybe it is just because I tend to follow hockey, baseball, and college sports, but the idea of having different sports levels based on relative skill doesn’t strike me as odd. I could easily take this guy’s argument and say that instead of separating by gender it is just pure skill separation among the already-existing levels. Sure, that would still leave practically everyone in the NBA and NHL as men, but we’ve already had women compete in racing and golf at the highest level. I’d imagine you’d start seeing women in minor league baseball.

The net result would be fewer opportunities for girls and women. One example: A WNBA team would have a difficult time beating any men’s college team, and probably quite a few boy’s high school teams. You could have 10 levels of professional basketball leagues and the net result would be many of the WNBA players would have a difficult time finding a spot in one of the 10 leagues. Its just reality.

The solution is simple: You compete in leagues according to the chromosomes you were born with.

 

[Annie]

What on this thread makes you think transgender people are being “bashed”?

 

[ZMystiCat]

I think this thread just broke a record for how many responses I got in one visit.

Not sure what you mean by “highest level”

As an example, baseball has MLB, AAA, AA, and A.

The only place where this would kind of be weird is international play, since it would effectively exclude women from many sports. With that said, my point still stands that this is hardly as untouchable as the author seems to think, and even beyond what I pointed out then, there’s the fact that this is already a matter under discussion with transwomen, and there are people arguing for their inclusion in women’s leagues.

I think a semi famous actor made some statements on how he would change his gender on how he felt on a given day or something like that.

I would ask for an exact citation to get the context, but I don’t think it matters since:

1. I already addressed this.
2. I pointed out the actual underlying philosophy that leads most to say it isn’t a choice.

This is still kind of getting at the core issue I was pointing out. The claim “I perceive myself as a woman and therefore am” (or however it is worded) is not a scientific claim. It is a philosophical one. Science can explain premise (i.e. feelings and perception), but the conclusion is philosophical. Unfortunately, we way too often get bogged down in treating both as scientific.

With that said…

This is really more a take on “self” rather than general reality. It’s really not the same as saying “I think President Obama died in 2009” or “I am an alien.” Both deal with some very general aspects, specifically history and language respectively.

Gender, though, is something we’ve kind of taken for granted. Despite Catholicism making sex and gender deeply spiritual matters as well as physical (Peter Kreeft covers that in this article), I think the fact we often fall back on genitalia and (based on more recent knowledge) chromosomes is a sign we’ve often seen it as purely physical. Therefore, the idea that there are more physical factors at play that could, potentially, indicate gender isn’t as easy as once thought when approached purely physically is what troubles many. Unfortunately, that often leads to arguments that are thoughtless (e.g. “it’s obviously absurd”) or so poorly fleshed out as to mean practically nothing (e.g. the chromosome argument).

Personally, I think the current discussion is a blessing in disguise. Approached properly, it might prod us to better understand what sex, gender, marriage, etc. are, at least in a Catholic sense.

 

[JimG]

Under the Equality Act, if passed, a man who perceives himself as a woman IS a woman; no other qualifications needed. So any biological male could compete, and likely win, on a women’s sports team.

I once saw a TV interview with a woman who identified as a man. She transferred from the women’s swim team to the men’s swim team, going from first place to nineteenth place in the process. She had her breasts removed, but not her uterus or ovariesThe reason, s/he said, was that some day s/he might want to bear a child.

 

[SeraficLeo]

It’s a narcissistic death cult. The logical conclusion of leftism is suicide. Pope-Emeritus Benedict XVI was, I believe, quite right to identify modernity with Nietzsche’s doomed philosophy [edit addition: in his Jesus of Nazareth series of books].

 

[SeraficLeo]

The equality act then would just be the logical statist/positivist enactment of that traitor Kennedy’s pseudo-rationalization of so-called “gay marriage.” Kennedy (may God have mercy on his soul) attempted to rationalize a pseudo-right for people to “marry” whatever they liked on a childish notion and interpretation of an American’s right to “self-identify.” of course, for normal people this meant identifying, e.g., as a Republican or a Democrat; or as a Christian or a Jew; or as a sports-lover or a sports-hater, et cetera. But Kennedy at best cowed to a fake mass media and social networking hoax to give the illusion that most people supported so-called gay marriage, even though to this day the majority of Americans do not.

 

[otjm]

I was listening to an interview of a progressive who was all about how gender dysphoria needs to be a protected class. I almost fell off my chair when at the end to the intervies, he said that it was a mental problem.

Either he suddenly grasped the truth, or was so removed from reality that he did not see the connections to his prior comments.

Women’s competitive sports is already being turned upside down; I suspect that if the cases have not yet started, they soon will be, to attempt to bring a bit of reality to this progressive juggernaut fueled by emotions run amok.

 

[Thorolfr]

They’re suffering, confused, worried about bullying and struggling with their own identities. They tend to hate themselves for who they are and it’s awful.
Gender dysphoria is not something you choose, it’s a cross millions bear. And the liberal movement glorifies it, instead of saying “it’s okay, we can help you feel better”
They say “it’s okay, we’ll give you hormone treatments, and surgeries to promote it because it’s who you are”

How do you propose that Transgender people should be helped to feel better? If doctors had a more effective treatment for relieving their Transgender patients’ gender dysphoria without hormones and surgery, I would think that they would use it. But apparently they don’t. I’ve met some doctors who treat Transgender people, and I think that they’re doing the best that they can to relieve the suffering of these patients.