"Fire Within": Contemp prayer and "Practice of Pres of God"

[JoyToBeCatholic]

“Joy to be Catholic”

I would like to share some thoughts with you, from notes that I have taken over the years:

In the eastern spiritual quest (hindu, buddhist) the search begins in the natural order, and the framework reference for its system rests on the natural order. (what can be perceived by man unaided by supernatural revelation.)

In Christianity, the system is based on supernatural revelation., as man’s intellect, unaided, cannot otherwise come to know this revelation. (Fall, Redemption, etc.)

Firstly, thank you for sharing.

I’m not sure I agree with either of these (though I’m far from an expert on any of this ). In Christianity, certainly the spiritual quest can begin in the natural order (creation). Chapter 4 of this book (Fire Within) treats specifically on this fact. It may not be so for each individual, but it is often a starting point for many. Furthermore, although Christianity contains supernatural revelation, it does not eliminate the possibility that God can be conceived of through natural means/creation (though imperfectly and incompletely). The accounts I gave earlier of St. John and St. Francis of Assisi also touch on this.

A Christian theologian, Johanns, said that Hinduism “is the most searching quest in the natural order for the Divine that the world has known.” It is a profound philosophy, but that is all. It lacks the light of supernatural revelation, thus exposing it to illusion.

Yes, I don’t necessarily believe that Hinduism nor Buddhism are complete. They certainly don’t answer many of life’s biggest questions, however, in experience, they (perhaps seem to) have found the “place/Being” where all of the answers are.

The highest goal of contemplation is to return to the state of innocence before the Fall, to transcend the human state and be transformed in Jesus Christ our Lord.

but that level of transcendance seems to have been obtained via eastern meditative techniques. Does their ignorance of the fall/redemption etc. mean they cannot experience God? Do we need intellectual knowledge of these things to have a relationship with God? Do we even have to know that this is a relationship? Cannot God overcome these imperfections/ignorances? Does He require of us an intellectual understanding of divine revelation in order to communicate Himself to us?

 

[InLight247]

But again, is God limited by the differences you cite?

God is not limited by anything.

The problem is that I see, not only similarities between the result or status, but also similarities in the methods or means of obtaining those results (contrary to what you stated was my logic).

There is similarity in the methods, however, there is significant difference. While both methods empty the mind, the Eastern method keeps the mind in void, Christian contemplation fill the mind with Christ. That is the major difference.

We all know Holy Spirit is a gentleman. He will never force himself on anyone. Our God respect each individual’s free will. He will not force his gift on anyone. On the other hand, evil spirits are forceful and dominating, they don’t respect people but force themselves in with any chance they can find. The spiritual realm is very real. There are various spirits out there. When one keep his mind in void, any spirit can get in. That is the danger I see in the Eastern method.

Christian contemplation invites God’s presence and longs for the union with God. Eastern meditation, without acknowledging and believing God, and not inviting God’s presence, will not have the presence of the Holy Spirit. Though God is not limited by anyone or anything, since God never force himself upon anyone, I don’t see how the Buddhist meditation can reach any similar result? I don’t see any union with the God in Buddhist meditation.

 

[Mark_Robert]

Although contemplation is infused one’s life must be receptive to God. If our mind and will is distracted by the things of this world, infused or not we will miss the gift of contemplation God wills for us. Prayer is a way of removing distractions and waiting patiently in faith for God’s gift. So although prayer does not produce the gift, it does foster a receptivity to God’s gift.

 

[Dorothy]

<<but that level of transcendance seems to have been obtained via eastern meditative techniques. Does their ignorance of the fall/redemption etc. mean they cannot experience God? Do we need intellectual knowledge of these things to have a relationship with God? Do we even have to know that this is a relationship? Cannot God overcome these imperfections/ignorances? Does He require of us an intellectual understanding of divine revelation in order to communicate Himself to us?>>

God does what He wills. He gives to each man according to his sincere searching.

Basic intellectual knowledge of Revelation helps us to be aware of the Lord’s infinite love for us, and we can respond to that, hopefully with much generosity.

 

[wupsie50]

Just to put my two cents in. Personally, I believe the saints experience contemplation because of the great Love they have for God for Himself. They set out to love God with their whole heart, mind, and body. The detachment follows because nothing can satisfy their longing except God Himself. This is the big difference from the eastern religions which is concerned with technique. The Saints are concerned with love of a Person.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

God is not limited by anything.

Christian contemplation invites God’s presence and longs for the union with God.

I was reminded of this in my further reading of the book

Prayer is a way of removing distractions and waiting patiently in faith for God’s gift. So although prayer does not produce the gift, it does foster a receptivity to God’s gift.

And likewise, so do Buddhist (for example) “techniques”. They remove the distractions.

I believe the saints experience contemplation because of the great Love they have for God for Himself. They set out to love God with their whole heart, mind, and body. The detachment follows because nothing can satisfy their longing except God Himself. This is the big difference from the eastern religions which is concerned with technique. The Saints are concerned with love of a Person.

Yes, I would agree with this. I believe intention is the biggest difference, although I’m not sure it means someone who doesn’t have that intention (love) is not still receptive to experiencing God/Truth,etc…

Btw, my further reading of this quickly led me to confession. I’ve spent the better part of the past 5 days soaking myself in the sacraments. Brought my family to the local La Salette shrine for confession on Friday, went to the local Franciscan friary in the early AM for vespers Saturday and Monday, went to 2 masses on Sunday and one on Monday AM, and attempted adoration Tuesday (but it didn’t work out)… All I can say is that, thanks to the very detailed descriptions of the progression of prayer Dubay gives (he is fantastic at summarizing - I really appreciated some of his work on Therese of Lisieux), he fully described my prayer life over about 10 years of my past deeply devoted Catholic life (minus the really big mystical stuff - I’ve only had a little taste of that :getholy: . My “fundy” friends are concerned that I’m hooked on a feeling. I do wonder what any “God experience” has to do with faith, but I think if we go that route we would have no Christians at all and can dismiss all the OT prophets… IOW, we can’t ignore that God does reach down and touch us sometimes - He always has. Besides, I can honestly say that the time of my life when I had the most contemplative experiences was also the most virtuous time of my life; when charity wasn’t done mechanically but NEEDED to be done; with an intensity to make God known and to serve Him in others. I haven’t experienced that kind of love in years, and I have to say, that in just the small bit of time since I’ve been back to The Church, I have had a very strong pull back into that desire to make Love known.

Love is the ultimate difference between the two. Some people are using similar methods to run away from suffering and some people are using those similar methods (INCLUDING suffering) in order to find True Love Itself. There is a world of difference between the two - that is absolutely true.

Well, I’m not afraid now, and, thankfully, I’ve got a return to something incredible I haven’t known in years: I see the fulfillment of God’s will in my life as far greater than any other desire I have - and that is something I have not experienced in years. That is the essence of the “sacrament of the present moment”; to recognize that true peace comes from doing the will of God in the present moment. I think this is why the union with God spoken of in Theresa’s and John’s writings aren’t Eucharistic. One must seek union in the every-day-ness of life. The church is a gift - the sacraments are a bonus! But “real life” is more than sitting in church or remaining in adoration (although I’d prefer that!) - it is realizing that where you are right now, and what you are doing is (or at least, can be and should be) sacred.

Could I have recognized that outside of the Catholic church? Does this mean contemplation is a “Catholic” thing? I’m not sure. But I do know that this is how God reaches down to touch me. I have to look toward the thing that increases my knowledge of God and God’s love, and also increases my love/charity toward the world. Nothing else has come close to doing that - at least not at this high a level - at least not as far as I know. I’m not 100% positive here - but I’ve got enough faith for now to remain in the church.
Anyway, I’m can’t speak for anyone else. All I know is that I don’t know this level of intimacy anywhere else.
Sorry for the rambling. I prolly shouldn’t post when I’m this tired

 

[InLight247]

I am very glad to read your latest post.
You are definitely on the right path.
And you are so right by saying:

All I know is that I don’t know this level of intimacy anywhere else.

Only one who has experienced the intimacy with God knows what intimacy with God is.

I know many people are fascinated with the oriental meditation. I know many Catholics
like to explore Zen. To me, Zen is a philosophy, Zen meditation is a technique. When I have the rich consolation of my loving God, and the supernatural inspiration from the Holy Spirit, I don’t need another philosophy, nor a technique. There are so many higher grounds in the Catholic spirituality to reach for, how can I afford any of my time for anything else? There are so many goldmines in the Bible, how do I have time to read any material from any other religion?

All I can say is that, thanks to the very detailed descriptions of the progression of prayer Dubay gives (he is fantastic at summarizing - I really appreciated some of his work on Therese of Lisieux), he fully described my prayer life over about 10 years of my past deeply devoted Catholic life (minus the really big mystical stuff

You are right that Fr. Dubay is good at analyzing and summarizing. Reading his book helps me know where I stand in my prayer life, which mansion I am in and what direction I should keep on taking. When I first read the “Fire Within”, I was so excited and had hard time to fall into sleep. I had to put it aside for couple weeks before I could continue.

Btw, my further reading of this quickly led me to confession. I’ve spent the better part of the past 5 days soaking myself in the sacraments. Brought my family to the local La Salette shrine for confession on Friday, went to the local Franciscan friary in the early AM for vespers Saturday and Monday, went to 2 masses on Sunday and one on Monday AM, and attempted adoration Tuesday (but it didn’t work out)…

Yes, you are also right about the Sacraments. It is so precious for Catholics to have the Sacraments. I love the Sacrament of Eucharist and the Sacrament of Confession. They both increase the intimacy with God.

God bless you on your journey of LOVE!