*first post* Effective status of Tridentine Mass after 1964

[edgydistributist]

Hello all

I’m new to the forum so please tell me if anything I did here is “wrong” (actually my first post).

What was the on-the-ground reality of the Tridentine Mass after the 1964-1969 period in the US? And traditionalism generally? To be clear I’m NOT condoning illicit worship in any form, this is just because I want to know what it was like. Can anyone share their experiences or knowledge? Specifically:

1. I know elderly priests were exempt from the Novus Ordo come 1969 and could celebrate private Masses in the earlier form. Regina Magazine says there were roughly a dozen of these Masses in the late 1970s. My questions here are:
   -Were they also exempt from the changes of 1964-1967?
   -Did they have servers?
   -Were laity (or religious) allowed into these Masses? Both the 1917 and 1983 Codes of Canon Law saw they can still attend private Mases, but did this actually occur?
   -Did you or someone you know have any experience with them? What were they like?
2. I heard the three Feeneyite groups in Massachussets who reconciled with the Church continued using the Tridentine Mass, but can anyone confirm this?
3. Individual priests got what’s called a celebret from the Vatican to keep using the 1962 Missal publicly. Both St. Padre Pio and St. Josemaría Escrivá did this. Were there any other such priests? Do you know exactly what this celebret system was?
4. How common was the Novus Ordo celebrated “traditionally” ie. Latin, ad orientam, chant, Communion kneeling under only one Spedies? What do you know about these and what experience with them did you have?
5. What was your experiences with the Indult Masses after 1984 or what do you know about them? Specifically:
   -What were they like?
   -What kind of people were there?
   -How hard did you have to push for them?
   -When did they appear in what Diocese?
   -When and where were they? I’ve heard they were in notoriously out-of-the-way places infrequently at odd times.
   -After the FSSP formed how did they change the scene?
6. Generally what was it like being Catholic in those years. Specifically:
   -What did you think of the changes of 1964-1967 ie. vernacular, standing for Communion, hymns, versus populum etc.
   -What did you think of the Novus Ordo in 1969?
   -What did you think of later changes like Communion under both Species or in the hand?
   -The general changes of this era and decline of Catholicism? Do you have any particularly egregious incidents around education/ Catechesis, Mass, etc.?
   -How did your friends/ family react?
   -What was the opinion of most Catholics and wider society?
   -Did you/ someone you know switch to an Eastern Catholic liturgy?
   -Were there any other licit holdouts of the Tridentine Mass?
   -Anything else? There’s probably a lot I’m not thinking of.
7. After Ecclesia Dei Adflicta we go into the so-called “liturgy wars” of the late 1980s and 1990s. What was that like? How did the traditionalist cause advance or change?
8. Do you have any primary sources/ personal accounts from this period? Any recommended reading?

I’d love anything you have to add! And happy Eastertide!

 

[adamhovey1988]

I plead ignorance on this, but I heard something about it earlier from Tim Staples , so if you can get ahold of him he might be able to say something

 

[CTBcin]

I don’t have any personal experience, as I’m young and a convert myself. However, I found a very interesting article from the U.S. Catholic interviewing a Jesuit priest who grew up during the liturgical changes of the ‘60s. I think U.S. Catholic tends to be more on the liberal side, and I don’t agree with all the points made in this article. However, I think it provides a fairly balanced and interesting look at how ordinary Catholics viewed the changes and how that has affected things today.

The times they were a'changing - U.S. Catholic

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I would gently suggest that you have way too many questions for one thread in your first post. Each of your questions could be a thread on its own. Especially 5 and 6.

I started reading your thread but there’s way too much going on in there for me to even try to answer. It also raises a question in my mind as to why you are gathering so much information, especially about people’s personal experiences. If you’re writing some kind of article or research paper, I don’t want to be part of that. Similarly, if you’re pushing some agenda about traditionalists being persecuted, I don’t want to be part of that either.

Maybe make some shorter or smaller or less complicated or less “loaded” threads. Ones that people don’t have to write a whole book to respond to.

 

[Peeps]

I haven’t been around CAF for that long and I generally don’t get involved much in the discussions of the forms of the Latin rite of the Mass (they tend to get cantankerous, and often are closed down) but I think if you use the Search, you will find numerous threads discussing all of your questions.

Sounds like an interesting way to spend a day of “sheltering in place!”

And after reading through all of the threads, you can always come back with questions that you didn’t find discussed.

 

[edgydistributist]

Oh this is mostly just to relieve boredom on my part. Yes I worried this may be a bit too long. While I may publish this in some capacity I would never use people’s individual experiences without their permission. Also, TOTALLY off topic, what does your username refer to? Just curious.

 

[StudentMI]

Hey just wanted to say welcome to the forum. I like your name and I consider myself something of a distributist.

My screen name was made when I was a student in college. Life got in the way and I haven’t been in a college course since 2013.

 

[Vico]

…

I transferred to an eastern Catholic church after the ordinary form was promulgated. I used to serve at the altar before 1970 including in Latin, and through the various transitions. The Mass became shorted, it seemed, although there were various forms of singing, including Folk Mass.

• St. Pope John XXIII in 1962. (Approved for E.F. Pope Benedict XVI - 2007)
• Orders for Missal changes March 1965 (vernacular, option to face congregation).
• Communion under both kinds 1965.
• Second instruction 1967 (English canon, simpler rubrics)
• Kneeling or standing communion (Eucharisticum mysterium) 1967
• Additional anaphora 1968
• St. Pope Paul VI Novus Ordo Missae on March 22, 1970.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

St. Pope John XXIII in 1962. (Approved for E.F. Pope Benedict XVI - 2007)

• Orders for Missal changes March 1965 (vernacular, option to face congregation).
• Communion under both kinds 1965.
• Second instruction 1967 (English canon, simpler rubrics)
• Kneeling of standing communion ( Eucharisticum mysterium ) 1967
• Additional anaphora 1968

Wait does this mean that Pope John XXIII called for options for vernacular and options to face congregation in the EF?

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

While I may publish this in some capacity

Is your post research for academia, journalism, etc.?

 

[Margaret_Ann]

I transferred to an eastern Catholic church after the ordinary form was promulgated.

You jogged my memory. I know I’ve posted this before but since @edgydistributist is new this is for both of you:

A gentleman from our parish was born and raised Roman Catholic. He was in the seminary in Philadelphia and 1 year away from being ordained a priest when the RC rite of ordination changed in 1967. He left the seminary and found our Ukrainian Greek Catholic parish. He was our sacristan, janitor, handyman - anything Father needed, he did it. He helped out at our festivals, Bingo, and any parish function. In church, somehow he’d manage to pray the Rosary in spite of the fact that people were all around him.

He was a true gentleman. When I started wearing a chapel cap, he’d hold the door for me and say: “Margaret, you look very lovely in your mantilla.” And I’d say: “Thank you, Joseph.”

He got along with everyone and was a mild man except when it came to defending the Faith. If anyone said anything against the Faith - watch out! He’d get MAD - and explain why you were wrong. And anyone who argued with him (which was rarely) learned not to do so again.

In June he will be gone 20 years.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

St. Pope John XXIII in 1962. (Approved for E.F. Pope Benedict XVI - 2007)

• Orders for Missal changes March 1965 (vernacular, option to face congregation).
• Communion under both kinds 1965.
• Second instruction 1967 (English canon, simpler rubrics)
• Kneeling of standing communion ( Eucharisticum mysterium ) 1967
• Additional anaphora 1968

Wait does this mean that Pope John XXIII called for options for vernacular and options to face congregation in the EF?

I am revising my prior post so the bullets are on each.

The 1965 Missal was produced by Vatican II which spanned 1962-1965. St. Pope John XIII died in June 1963 during the council. December 4, 1963 was the date of the promulgation of Sacrosanctum Concilium that allowed for vernacular use.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Well, that was a depressing read. But interesting.

 

[27lw]

That article sure was depressing, and had more than a few half-truths.

 

[CTBcin]

That article sure was depressing, and had more than a few half-truths.

Right. Like I said, I don’t agree with all the claims and there was certainly a little bias that crept in, but taking it for what it is, it is an interesting first-hand perspective.

 

[Dovekin]

Well, that was a depressing read. But interesting.

What was depressing?

It seemed like a fairly standard viewpoint, sprinkled with a few extra facts. Obviously some bias, but everything has some. US Catholic probably would not have published it without some strong opinions in it.

 

[27lw]

“Extra” facts?
Like:

1. “there were no Catholic hymns”
2. The implication that the Tridentine Mass had existed for about 100 years.
3. The statement that Catholics would all of a sudden encounter Jews and agnostics in the suburbs and they would “have to learn to get along”.ROFL
   Many other iffy statements that I don’t believe without a source.
   I’m concerned that this man is Dean of the Boston College School for Theology and Ministry.
   What is he teaching this students?

 

[Dovekin]

But what is depressing?

I can understand disagreeing with what he says, but he is largely correct. I can see where you felt he implied the TLM is 100 years old, but that is really missing what he was talking about. The remarks on Protestant hymns after Vatican II and the Catholic Ghetto refer to realities even if they are sometimes overemphasized. I grew up in a suburb with the Jews and agnostics, but my wife did not, and I am still amazed by how foreign some stuff is to her.

But even if your criticisms were accurate, why be depressed?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Hello all

I’m new to the forum so please tell me if anything I did here is “wrong” (actually my first post).

What was the on-the-ground reality of the Tridentine Mass after the 1964-1969 period in the US? And traditionalism generally? To be clear I’m NOT condoning illicit worship in any form, this is just because I want to know what it was like. Can anyone share their experiences or knowledge? Specifically:…

There’s a whole lot there. I can help out with some (not all) of this, but not right now. I was up almost the entire night resolving a home-improvement project that was supposed to take about an hour — it took five hours. But at least I now have more storage space. I managed to snag a short nap this morning. Much to do today.

For a traditionalist perspective, you might read the three-volume Liturgical Revolution series by Michael Davies. (It’s not cheap.) I knew Michael personally and, assuming anyone might assert otherwise (I wouldn’t, but others might), he died in full communion with the Church. Another good source, so I’m told, is Father Ralph Wiltgen’s The Rhine Flows into the Tiber (it has since been re-titled, but I prefer the original title). Bare Ruined Choirs by Garry Wills is another good account.

Set: The Davies Liturgical Revolution Series - Angelus Press

https://www.amazon.com/Rhine-Flows-into-Tiber-History/dp/0895551861

https://www.amazon.com/Bare-Ruined-Choirs-Prophecy-Religion/dp/0809148196

 

[27lw]

Why is Massa’s article depressing to read?
Let me count the ways…

1. The many half-truths, or even outright falsehoods from a Catholic priest and Dean of theology of a Catholic college
2. The bleak and dumbed-down portrayal of the pres-1964 Church
3. The unpleasant spectacle of priests publicly protesting Humanae Vitae
4. Just the general feeling of crisis and upheaval in the Church and larger society
5. Nuns leaving their habits behind
6. Admitting how ill-prepared priests were to explain the changes to their congregations
7. Throwing out hundreds of years of traditions - apparently hated by the author priest - but beloved to many other laypeople and clergy, to be replaced by many years of unpleasant liturgical experimentation
8. Reading about the prominent lay couple who advised against the teaching of the Church on artificial birth control
9. Weakened teaching authority of the Church
10. The author’s use of the phrase “the priest has his back to you” as a description of “ad orientam”

Honestly, it’s not just depressing, I find it almost sickening to read his description of the pre-1964 Church.