Flagons

[turtleoompa]

It is recommended by the USCCB that the flagons can be brought up with the gifts. It is recommended that the wine be consecrated in chalices, not the flagon. Get the facts on USCCB, under topics, then type in the word flagon. Pass on this info to our fellow brothers and sisters to do things correctly.

 

[John_Lilburne]

It is recommended by the USCCB that the flagons can be brought up with the gifts. It is recommended that the wine be consecrated in chalices, not the flagon. Get the facts on USCCB, under topics, then type in the word flagon. Pass on this info to our fellow brothers and sisters to do things correctly.

When the wine is bought up with the gifts it should not be in the chalice. The normal term for the container is “cruet”.

From the 2002 General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“118. The following are also to be prepared: …
c. On the credence table: … cruets containing the wine and the water, unless all of these are presented by the faithful in procession at the Offertory;”

“142. After this, as the minister presents the cruets, the priest stands at the side of the altar and pours wine and a little water into the chalice, saying quietly, Per huius aquae (By the mystery of this water).”

Unfortunately an incorrect answer on this issue was published in the November 2006 Adoremus Bulletin: “To summarize: … the wine is poured into the chalice(s) which are brought to the altar at the Offertory already filled. The filling of these chalices with unconsecrated wine may take place in the sacristy, or at the credence table. Anything resembling a “filling ceremony” at the altar is definitely not in any way suggested, much less advocated by the approved norms.” The article is at adoremus.org/1106Chalices.html .

Perhaps this has caused confusion.

I think it would be better to use the term “cruets” instead “flagons”. I think the wine cruet should have a lid to reduce the evaporation of alcohol from the wine. But unless I have missed the point, I think the USCCB information is OK.

 

[CRW]

When the wine is bought up with the gifts it should not be in the chalice. The normal term for the container is “cruet”.

From the 2002 General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“118. The following are also to be prepared: …
c. On the credence table: … cruets containing the wine and the water, unless all of these are presented by the faithful in procession at the Offertory;”

“142. After this, as the minister presents the cruets, the priest stands at the side of the altar and pours wine and a little water into the chalice, saying quietly, Per huius aquae (By the mystery of this water).”

Unfortunately an incorrect answer on this issue was published in the November 2006 Adoremus Bulletin: “To summarize: … the wine is poured into the chalice(s) which are brought to the altar at the Offertory already filled. The filling of these chalices with unconsecrated wine may take place in the sacristy, or at the credence table. Anything resembling a “filling ceremony” at the altar is definitely not in any way suggested, much less advocated by the approved norms.” The article is at adoremus.org/1106Chalices.html .

Perhaps this has caused confusion.

I think it would be better to use the term “cruets” instead “flagons”. I think the wine cruet should have a lid to reduce the evaporation of alcohol from the wine. But unless I have missed the point, I think the USCCB information is OK.

 

[CRW]

Sorry for some reason I timed out before my post was received above.

Cruets are normally the smaller containers used for the wine and water, located on the credence table, by the altar servers. Other containers, can be filled with wine, prior to the Mass, to be used during the Offertory. The priest or deacon will then fill the chalices with wine before the consecration.

 

[DWPC]

Flagons? I though only pirates drank from flagons.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Flagons? I though only pirates drank from flagons.

Heh.

Whenever I hear about flagons, I can’t help but think about the flagon with the dragon that holds the pellet with the poison and the vessel with the pestle that holds the brew that is true (since someone broke the chalice from the palace).

tee

 

[Prayerful]

Roger Mahony’s response:

“…Because our practice has become an Archdiocesan custom of over seven years, with both the Catholic faithful and the ministers accustomed to this practice, I am willing to grant exceptions to no. 106 of Redemptionis Sacramentum for legitimate reasons, such as the following: where the altar table is too small to accommodate many chalices, thus creating a greater danger for spillage; and where the number of chalices is so large that they would visibly detract from the important sign of One Bread and One Cup, as well as increase the danger of tipping over the chalices…”

the-tidings.com/2004/0910/liturgy.htm

 

[DWPC]

When I was an altar boy many years ago, the wine was brought to the altar in (cheap) glass cruets, filled before Mass from common wine bottles in the sacristy. So whats the big deal about using glass carafe now that the amount of wine used is much greater? Its only a matter of necessary capacity.

Anyone wanting to see why liturgical issues never seem settled need only read Mahoney’s long-winded arcane statement on what you’d think is a simple subject. You imagine how things go in debates on more complicated subjects.

 

[tee_eff_em]

When I was an altar boy many years ago, the wine was brought to the altar in (cheap) glass cruets, filled before Mass from common wine bottles in the sacristy. So whats the big deal about using glass carafe now that the amount of wine used is much greater? Its only a matter of necessary capacity.

As the OP points out, there is nothing wrong with using a large vessel to convey the offering of wine. However, *Redemptionis Sacramentum *makes clear that the offering is to be divided into chalices prior to the consecration, rather than being consecrated in the large vessel and then divided.

tee