Flags in the Sanctuary?

[PiousTemplar]

I have seen photos of Masses taking place in America where there is a flag of the country in the Sanctuary. Is this encouraged? We don’t have a flag in our Parish Sanctuary!

 

[Domnall]

We have an American flag as well as the flag of the Vatican in our sanctuary. I’ve seen this in every Catholic church I’ve been to in North America. I think there is a requirement that if one is there, the other should be too.

Someone may be able to actually cite that for you though.

 

[GloriousOrder]

In the very back of our basilica (near the entry doors of the Narthex), there are three flags: one of the Province, one of the Nation, and one of the Holy See. They’re rather tucked back into a corner, near a portrait of the Divine Mercy and some vigil candles. Anyway, they’re nowhere near the sanctuary. I’d like to see some information on that…

 

[PiousTemplar]

Wow - thanks for fast replies!

I’d like to say that I have only ever seen flags in the Sanctuary in photos of American churches. No Catholic Churches I have been to in South Australia have any flags, just a picture of Pope Benedict XVI at the door.

Perhaps it is a cultural thing?

 

[paperwight66]

i think it must be peculiar to the States. i have never seen it anywhere else in the world.

I think when it was discussed before, someone suggested it was connected to the Korean War.

 

[thistle]

I have seen photos of Masses taking place in America where there is a flag of the country in the Sanctuary. Is this encouraged? We don’t have a flag in our Parish Sanctuary!

Must only be in the US. I’ve never seen flags in the sanctuary in Europe or South East Asia.

 

[Langbank]

The origin of the display of the American flag in many parishes in the United States appears have its origins in the offering of prayers for those who served during the Second World War (1941-1945).

Ah! that would be the Second World War that started on the 1st of September 1939 would it?

 

[JaMc]

The origin of the display of the American flag in many parishes in the United States appears have its origins in the offering of prayers for those who served during the Second World War (1941-1945).

Ah! that would be the Second World War that started on the 1st of September 1939 would it?

Not for the Americans - here, it’s December 7, 1941. We tried to stay neutral before then, but (for obvious reasons), that didn’t last.

 

[Zacdecat]

Wow - thanks for fast replies!

I’d like to say that I have only ever seen flags in the Sanctuary in photos of American churches. No Catholic Churches I have been to in South Australia have any flags, just a picture of Pope Benedict XVI at the door.

Perhaps it is a cultural thing?

You are correct in saying it is a cultural thing, flags never were seen in the sanctuary of Australian Catholic Churches. But Australians have never been so indoctrinated in the concept of nationalism as the Americans appear tobe. I do not recall ever seeing national flags in English Catholic Churches either.

 

[Zacdecat]

Not for the Americans - here, it’s December 7, 1941. We tried to stay neutral before then, but (for obvious reasons), that didn’t last.

I find that pretty offensive actually, all those who died prior to the Americans reacting were what…the result of a police action? Does America count the folk slaughtered in the concerntration camps prior to America entering the war or not?

I am sorry but it really does upset me! It was a world war whether or not the Americans choose to aknowledge it or not.

 

[Frosty]

i think it must be peculiar to the States. i have never seen it anywhere else in the world.

.

It isn’t just peculiar to the U.S. In my province of Ontario, Canada, almost all the churches I’ve been to have the Canadian Flag and the Vatican Flag somewhere in the building. They can be situated anywhere . . . . in the narthex, at the back of the nave, the front of the nave or in bigger churches with large sanctuaries, sometimes they are at the back of the sanctuary, usually one at each corner. Actually, I’ve seen the national flag as well as the Vatican Flag in churches in Italy, France and Spain too.

The only reason I remember seeing them in those countries is that I had read on a forum different posts about this subject just before a trip there a year ago. I don’t usually notice such things because I’ve become so used to them at home but on that trip, the subject must have stuck in my mind so I looked!

 

[Chatter163]

I find that pretty offensive actually, all those who died prior to the Americans reacting were what…the result of a police action? Does America count the folk slaughtered in the concerntration camps prior to America entering the war or not?

I am sorry but it really does upset me! It was a world war whether or not the Americans choose to aknowledge it or not.

You are reacting emotionally and reading way too much into things. The original statement by the U.S. bishops’ conference referred to Americans “who served during the Second World War (1941-1945).” The bishops at no time even remotely suggested that there was no war, casualities, deaths or suffering. They simply stated the years that Americans served in the war. That was the context, nothing else. Since the U.S. did not enter the war until the Pearl Harbor attack in December, 1941, no Americans died in that war prior to 1941. From that point on flags became common in churches for reasons that have already been explained.

The Knights of Columbus–not an exclusively American organization, but admittedly, quite predominately American in its origins and membership–were no small part of this development.

 

[TimothyH]

You are correct in saying it is a cultural thing, flags never were seen in the sanctuary of Australian Catholic Churches. But Australians have never been so indoctrinated in the concept of nationalism as the Americans appear tobe. I do not recall ever seeing national flags in English Catholic Churches either.

Idoctrinated? Seriously?

I think we have a healthy national pride based on the vaulues our nation stands for, and has stood up for, but no sane person who has ever experienced the day to day life of an ordinary America can claim that we are not critical of our own nation current status, its leaders or its past history. Ten minutes in an third grade classroom will evidence how quite the opposite is in fact the case. I’m often surprised at the level of nationalistic pride in America in spite of how imbedded anti-american sentiment is in American society.

Indoctrinated is a word which if one were to look up the definition, is actualy better suited to describing how Catholics are catechized. Catholics are taught to uncriticaly and unquestioningly accept a specific body of doctrine more so than are Americans taught to accept nationalistic pride without question.

-Tim-

 

[Zacdecat]

Idoctrinated? Seriously?

I think we have a healthy national pride based on the vaulues our nation stands for, and has stood up for, but no sane person who has ever experienced the day to day life of an ordinary America can claim that we are not critical of our own nation current status, its leaders or its past history. Ten minutes in an third grade classroom will evidence how quite the opposite is in fact the case. I’m often surprised at the level of nationalistic pride in America in spite of how imbedded anti-american sentiment is in American society.

Indoctrinated is a word which if one were to look up the definition, is actualy better suited to describing how Catholics are catechized. Catholics are taught to uncriticaly and unquestioningly accept a specific body of doctrine more so than are Americans taught to accept nationalistic pride without question.

-Tim-

That is how it seems to foreigners, but I am happy to stand corrected.

 

[Stylites]

You are correct in saying it is a cultural thing, flags never were seen in the sanctuary of Australian Catholic Churches. But Australians have never been so indoctrinated in the concept of nationalism as the Americans appear tobe. I do not recall ever seeing national flags in English Catholic Churches either.

Patriotism (not nationalism) is a virtue fostered by the Church.

By civil allegiance is meant the duty of loyalty and obedience which a person owes to the State of which he is a citizen. The word allegiance is a derivative of liege, free, and historically it signifies the service which a free man owed to his liege lord. In the matter in hand its meaning is wider, it is used to signify the duty which a citizen owes to the state of which he is a subject.

That duty, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, rests on nature itself and the sanctions of religion. As nature and religion prescribe to children dutiful conduct towards the parents who brought them into the world, so nature and religion impose on citizens certain obligations towards their country and its rulers. These obligations may be reduced to those of patriotism and obedience. Patriotism requires that the citizen should have a reasonable esteem and love for his country. He should take an interest in his country’s history, he should know how to value her institutions, and he should be prepared to sacrifice himself for her welfare. In his country’s need it is not only a noble thing, but it is a sacred duty to lay down one’s life for the safety of the commonwealth. Love for his country will lead the citizen to show honour and respect to its rulers. They represent the State, and are entrusted by God with power to rule it for the common good. The citizen’s chief duty is to obey the just laws of his country.

. . . .

newadvent.org/cathen/03794b.htm

 

[PiousTemplar]

I think he just stated the stero-type of Americans that non-Americans are used to. I don’t think he meant to be offensive. God Bless.

 

[JaMc]

I find that pretty offensive actually, all those who died prior to the Americans reacting were what…the result of a police action? Does America count the folk slaughtered in the concerntration camps prior to America entering the war or not?

I am sorry but it really does upset me! It was a world war whether or not the Americans choose to aknowledge it or not.

Of course there was a war, and the Americans acknowledge that. However, the Americans did not enter the War until they were attacked in 1941, and when Germany (Japan’s ally) declared war on the U.S. soon thereafter. For that matter, Japan and China were at war beginning in 1937. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War. Do Europeans say that WWII began in 1937, rather than 1939? Perhaps a Chinese person would be offended by a European saying it started in 1939, instead of 1937.

The European powers did not become invovled until 1939, when Germany invaded Poland, so they acknowledge the sacrifices of their own countrymen beginning at that point. Likewise, the Americans acknowledge the sacrifices of their troops when they entered the War in 1941. As one would not be likely to see a poster of John Bull, with the statement “Your King and Country Need You!” in response to the war in China in 1937 and 1938, likewise, a wartime American patriotic display, such as a more widespread display of flags, would be equally unlikely in response to the war in Europe in 1939 and 1940.

 

[Zacdecat]

You are reacting emotionally and reading way too much into things. The original statement by the U.S. bishops’ conference referred to Americans “who served during the Second World War (1941-1945).” The bishops at no time even remotely suggested that there was no war, casualities, deaths or suffering. They simply stated the years that Americans served in the war. That was the context, nothing else. Since the U.S. did not enter the war until the Pearl Harbor attack in December, 1941, no Americans died in that war prior to 1941. From that point on flags became common in churches for reasons that have already been explained.

The Knights of Columbus–not an exclusively American organization, but admittedly, quite predominately American in its origins and membership–were no small part of this development.

Thank you Chatter163, I am one of the world’s multitude whose concepts of American life are based on media…which as everyone knows does not get too concerned about truth in telling a good yarn, but it is all we have.

 

[Zacdecat]

Of course there was a war, and the Americans acknowledge that. However, the Americans did not enter the War until they were attacked in 1941, and when Germany (Japan’s ally) declared war on the U.S. soon thereafter. For that matter, Japan and China were at war beginning in 1937. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War. Do Europeans say that WWII began in 1937, rather than 1939? Perhaps a Chinese person would be offended by a European saying it started in 1939, instead of 1937.

The European powers did not become invovled until 1939, when Germany invaded Poland, so they acknowledge the sacrifices of their own countrymen beginning at that point. Likewise, the Americans acknowledge the sacrifices of their troops when they entered the War in 1941. As one would not be likely to see a poster of John Bull, with the statement “Your King and Country Need You!” in response to the war in China in 1937 and 1938, likewise, a wartime American patriotic display, such as a more widespread display of flags, would be equally unlikely in response to the war in Europe in 1939 and 1940.

I have read accounts of the brutality of the Japanese invading Manchuria and the abomination of the Rape of Nanking. The Japanese also experimented on Chinese in a parody of medical experiments calling their victims “logs”.

Italy also had some early war experiences in places such as Somalia where the victorious and glorious Italian Fascists slaughtered Somalians armed with spears, bows and arrows and flintlock muskets.

These and several others were precursors to the global conflict that ensued.