Flight into Egypt

[ConstantineTG]

Going with the tradition in the Protoevangelium, Joseph would have been an older man who would have been living outside of Bethlehem for some while. Perhaps his close relatives would still be in Bethlehem or if they are still alive. Also we are not sure how welcoming they would be of him as Scripture was silent on his relations with his relatives.

I’d rather not speculate into many of the details that may or may not be. Scripture and traditions has given us what we need to know.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Going with the tradition in the Protoevangelium, Joseph would have been an older man who would have been living outside of Bethlehem for some while. Perhaps his close relatives would still be in Bethlehem or if they are still alive. Also we are not sure how welcoming they would be of him as Scripture was silent on his relations with his relatives.

I’d rather not speculate into many of the details that may or may not be. Scripture and traditions has given us what we need to know.

Correct. And I went into both, and you addressed absolutely none of my points. The details I gave were supported by Scripture, supported by the culture, and even supported by tradition.

How Joseph’s relatives would have felt about Joseph is completely irrelevant in regards to Near and Middle Eastern hospitality, and again, does not address any of the issues raised.

You are going off of an Apocryphal work, and making an assumption that because one thing in it may be true, so is the part about the cave. I have already dealt with the starting presupposition of your argument, which is a tenuous basis. The cave part can be true (as I have shown regarding Palestinian homes), but assuming it is true because it’s in an apocryphal book is reaching too far with the evidence you have.

 

[patrick457]

1. Simple village homes in Palestine often only had two rooms. There was a guest room, and the main room was a family room. The end of the room next to the door was either a few feet lower or bloacked off with timbers, and into this area the animals were driven every night. Every morning these same animals were taken out and tied up in the courtyard, and the animal stall would be cleaned for the day. The animals are safe from theft and also ironically provide warmth for the people in the home. The family room had a slight slope down to the animal stalls which aided in sweeping and cleaning. Mangers for cows were cut out of the floor on the raised family room side bordering the lowered stable, so that if the cows were hungry they could stand and eat. Mangers for sheep made of wood were simply placed on the floor in the lowered stable.

Well, feeding troughs could have been made either of stone or wood. The fact is, we don’t have any wooden mangers from the area that survive today (because the wood would have deteriorated), if they were used at all; what we have are ones that are made out of more durable materials.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Well, feeding troughs could have been made either of stone or wood. The fact is, we don’t have any wooden mangers from the area that survive today (because the wood would have deteriorated), if they were used at all; what we have are ones that are made out of more durable materials.

You’re absolutely correct. The ones on the higher level would have to be cut out or they would be too high even for cattle to feed out of, but if they were on the same level they can be made of any number of materials, as you have amply demonstrated.

 

[patrick457]

The cave part can be true (as I have shown regarding Palestinian homes), but assuming it is true because it’s in an apocryphal book is reaching too far with the evidence you have.

Well actually, it’s not the only place where cave is mentioned. I’ll be shamelessly quoting myself from a few posts ago, but here goes:

St. Justin mentions it as well. He saw the cave as a fulfillment of Isaiah 33:16, which in his Greek text read, “he shall dwell in the lofty cave of the strong rock.” So the cave tradition was, and continues to be, very strong in the East. Later in the West however, because the Vulgate version of that verse reads (as per the Hebrew) munimenta saxorum sublimitas ejus, “the fortifications of rocks shall be his highness,” there was no prophecy to fulfill. So the cave tradition was largely forgotten in the West, and because of Luke’s mention of the ‘manger’ people seem to have just begun to assume that Jesus was born in a wooden, Western-style barn. Some medieval artists made a compromise and showed both a cave and a wooden stable to accomodate both versions, but the cave was eventually done away with altogether in later medieval and Renaissance art in the West.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Well actually, it’s not the only place where cave is mentioned. I’ll be shamelessly quoting myself from a few posts ago, but here goes:

St. Justin mentions it as well. He saw the cave as a fulfillment of Isaiah 33:16, which in his Greek text read, “he shall dwell in the lofty cave of the strong rock.” So the cave tradition was, and continues to be, very strong in the East. Later in the West however, because the Vulgate version of that verse reads (as per the Hebrew) munimenta saxorum sublimitas ejus, “the fortifications of rocks shall be his highness,” there was no prophecy to fulfill. So the cave tradition was largely forgotten in the West, and because of Luke’s mention of the ‘manger’ people seem to have just begun to assume that Jesus was born in a wooden, Western-style barn. Some medieval artists made a compromise and showed both a cave and a wooden stable to accomodate both versions, but the cave was eventually done away with altogether in later medieval and Renaissance art in the West.

True, but the protoevangelum is what he is basing most of his argument off of. I have no qualm with this particular tradition, it’s possible it is true, but I question how he is going about supporting it. To shamelessly quote both of us however, it is possible it was both a cave and a house.

 

[Vince1022]

Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich states that the Holy Family stayed in a large cave on the outskirts of Bethlehem. She has the flight to Egypt taking place when Jesus was about 9 months to 1 year, and she says that the flight began from Nazareth, on Feb. 29th.

‘Was it today that Joseph
started for Egypt?’ to which she answered very clearly and decisively: ‘No, the day he
started on the flight was what is now February 29th.’ – Life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, p. 180 ebook

Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich’s opinions are of course valuable, as are the opinions of any of the faithful. They don’t really answer the question though, regarding Church teaching or authoritative interpretation of Scripture. And of course the date of Feb. 29th is completely subjective and can neither be proved nor disproved.

 

[Vince1022]

Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich states that the Holy Family stayed in a large cave on the outskirts of Bethlehem. She has the flight to Egypt taking place when Jesus was about 9 months to 1 year, and she says that the flight began from Nazareth, on Feb. 29th.

‘Was it today that Joseph
started for Egypt?’ to which she answered very clearly and decisively: ‘No, the day he
started on the flight was what is now February 29th.’ – Life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, p. 180 ebook

And tradition (small t) affirms that the Birth of Jesus took place in a cave: “On the first Christmas of my ministry as Successor of the Apostle Peter I mentioned publicly the great desire I had to celebrate the beginning of my Pontificate in Bethlehem at the cave of the Nativity (cf. Homily at Midnight Mass, 24 December 1978, No. 3). That was not possible then; and has not been possible until now.” – Pope John Paul II, homily on the occasion of his pilgrimage to the Holy Land, 2000.

In my chronology, Jesus was about 15 months old at the flight to Egypt.

Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich’s opinion is of course valuable as are all opinions of the faithful. Of course, that doesn’t make such opinion true, or taught by the Catholic Church.

Regarding the suggestion that “tradition” affirms Jesus was born in a cave, where in Scripture is this taught (or even suggested)?

As Vatican II teaches (Dei Verbum 11):

This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed.

So, in Scripture, where is the cave? And if it’s not there, how can anyone suggest that the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus being born in a cave is affirmed?