Flowchart: The (Very) Early Timeline of Christianity

[James817]

You also gotta read this part of John:

54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory means nothing. The One who glorifies Me is My Father, of whom you say ‘He is ourd God.’ 55You do not know Him, but I know Him. If I said I did not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him, and I keep His word. 56Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see My day. He saw it and was glad.”

57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?”

58“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

59At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus hid Himself and slipped away from the temple area.

So over here Christ is saying that He was the One who appeared to Abraham at Mamre, that He was the I Am who spoke with Moses. In other words, Jesus is saying He is God.

So I will side with John, and the Church throughout history.

 

[fredystairs]

Which part of the letter says that succession was established? Setting up bishops and deacons is a far cry from declaring that bishops will replace the apostles.

One of Jesus’ commissions to the Apostles was to make disciples: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 28: 19). Getting to all nations is something that one cannot do in a lifetime. It will take centuries. Jesus meant that others were to continue this task. This can be seen by Paul’s instructions to Titus: “My purpose in leaving you in Crete was that you might accomplish what had been left undone, especially the appointment of presbyters in every town.” (Titus 1: 5)

St. Paul has a similar charge to Timothy. “In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.” (2 Timothy 4: 1 -2) St. Paul also gives Timothy authority over the presbyters: “19 Do not entertain an accusation against a presbyter unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 But those presbyters who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning. 21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.” (1 Timothy 5: 19 - 21)

Now in both of these instances, Titus and Timothy are given authority over presbyters. Only a bishop would have authority over the presbyters.

But let me ask you. If it was not to succeed the Apostles in making disciples that the bishops were installed, then what was their purpose, their function? Why set up bishops if they are not to continue the Apostles’ mission?

In Post 37, you mention Eusebius and his Ecclesiastical History. I sincerely thank you for that, since I had a copy but hadn’t read it. I spent some time reviewing and I’d like to pass on some passages that I found germane to our discussion. (All of these are taken from the New Advent website: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250101.htm)

It seems that Eusebius had several purposes for writing his History one of which was:
It is my purpose to write an account of the successions of the holy apostles, as well as of the times which have elapsed from the days of our Saviour to our own; (book 1, paragraph 1)

In his History, he mentions several successions to various sees. I will highlight Rome.

continued

 

[fredystairs]

After the martyrdom of Paul and of Peter, Linus was the first to obtain the episcopate of the church at Rome. (3: 2)
As to the rest of his followers, Paul testifies that Crescens was sent to Gaul; but Linus, whom he mentions in the Second Epistle to Timothy 2 Timothy 4:21 as his companion at Rome, was Peter’s successor in the episcopate of the church there, as has already been shown. Clement also, who was appointed third bishop of the church at Rome, was, as Paul testifies, his co-laborer and fellow-soldier.(3: 4)
In the twelfth year of the same reign Clement succeeded Anencletus after the latter had been bishop of the church of Rome for twelve years. (3: 15)
At that time Clement still ruled the church of Rome, being also the third that held the episcopate there after Paul and Peter. Linus was the first, and after him came Anencletus. (3: 21)

And there are others concerning Rome and other episcopates but these will suffice to make the point that Eusebius understood that the bishops were to succeed the apostles.

Blessings

 

[gazelam]

gazelam:

Which part of the letter says that succession was established? Setting up bishops and deacons is a far cry from declaring that bishops will replace the apostles.

One of Jesus’ commissions to the Apostles was to make disciples: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 28: 19). Getting to all nations is something that one cannot do in a lifetime. It will take centuries. Jesus meant that others were to continue this task. This can be seen by Paul’s instructions to Titus: “My purpose in leaving you in Crete was that you might accomplish what had been left undone, especially the appointment of presbyters in every town.” (Titus 1: 5)

St. Paul has a similar charge to Timothy. “In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.” (2 Timothy 4: 1 -2) St. Paul also gives Timothy authority over the presbyters: “19 Do not entertain an accusation against a presbyter unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 But those presbyters who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning. 21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.” (1 Timothy 5: 19 - 21)

Now in both of these instances, Titus and Timothy are given authority over presbyters. Only a bishop would have authority over the presbyters.

But let me ask you. If it was not to succeed the Apostles in making disciples that the bishops were installed, then what was their purpose, their function? Why set up bishops if they are not to continue the Apostles’ mission?

The word “apostle” comes from the greek meaning “one sent forth” (see http://biblehub.com/greek/652.htm.) Whereas the word “bishop” comes from the greek meaning “overseer” or “supervisor” (See http://biblehub.com/greek/1985.htm.) The verses you cite show Paul giving instruction regarding how to further the Lord’s work in a specific locality, or in other words how to oversee the Lord’s work there. In neither case you cite does Paul authorize either Titus or Timothy to travel to around the world setting up new churches the way that Paul is doing. Looks to me like Titus was asked to stay in Crete. Replacing Judas with Matthias is an example of apostolic succession, but Paul assigning bishops to localities is not.

Blessings to you too!

 

[gazelam]

What is explicitly mentioned? The gates of Hades not prevailing against the Church. That lefthand side of the chart I’d like you to address.

OK. I’ll bite. What is your understanding of “gates of Hades”?

 

[gazelam]

We had some Mormons come to our house and use an obscure Bible passage to justify the idea of there being three levels of Heaven - what’s the different between extrapolating from that concept, exactly?

Which “obscure” Bible passage are you referring to?

2 Corinthians 12:2? I know someone in Christ who, fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows), was caught up to the third heaven

Or perhaps 1 Corinthians 15 41, 42 The brightness of the sun is one kind, the brightness of the moon another, and the brightness of the stars another. For star differs from star in brightness. So also is the resurrection of the dead.

Regarding this obscure passage, Origen said the following: Our understanding of the passage indeed is, that the Apostle, wishing to describe the great difference among those who rise again in glory, i.e., of the saints, borrowed a comparison from the heavenly bodies, saying, "One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, another the glory of the stars. (Origen, De Principiis 2:10:2, in ANF 4:294.)

John Chrysostom concurs: And having said this, he ascends again to the heaven, saying, “There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon.” For as in the earthly bodies there is a difference, so also in the heavenly; and that difference no ordinary one, but reaching even to the uttermost: there being not only a difference between sun and moon, and stars, but also between stars and stars. For what though they be all in the heaven? yet some have a larger, others a less share of glory. What do we learn from hence? That although they be all in God’s kingdom, all shall not enjoy the same reward; and though all sinners be in hell, all shall not endure the same punishment (John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians 41:4, in NPNF Series 1, 12:251)

 

[gazelam]

Also, “celestial heaven” and man becoming a “god” and ruling over their own planets aren’t explicitly mentioned in the Bible either.

If you believe that man cannot become like God, what do you make of CCC 460?

The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."

Here are a few obscure verses that speak of man becoming like God.

Matthew 5:48 So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Romans 8:14-17 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received a spirit of adoption, through which we cry, “Abba,* Father!”

The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him

2 Corinthians 3:17, 18 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

All of us, gazing with unveiled face on the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lord who is the Spirit

2 Peter 1:2-4 may grace and peace be yours in abundance through knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and power.

Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire

1 John 3:1, 2 See what love the Father has bestowed on us that we may be called the children of God. Yet so we are. The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is

I hope this helps…

 

[Spyridon]

Pease tell me when the Great Apostasy happened.

That’s gonna be hard to do… y’know, considering it didn’t happen and all.