Following the Correct Religion

[Della]

Right, and you decided to join Catholicism after being convinced it was the truth. There are also people leaving because they’re convinced it’s not the truth.

Most who leave do not do so because they understood Catholicism and decided it wasn’t true. They leave for many other reasons, but that’s not the main one. So, this simply isn’t a real factor.

Again, not saying that we deserve any special treatment. Just noting that it’s quite a bit different than it used to be where there was only 1 religion you knew of.

If people were having any real difficulty because there are so many to chose from, but that’s not the case. People leave because the Church doesn’t conform to what they want to do/think/believe. Most leave because of marriage issues and the Church’s stance on it. Recent statistics bear this out. So, they are rejecting truth not searching for it. They want the Church to change what it cannot change just to suit them and what they want to do.

I hear what you’re saying… but at the same time, other religions will make the same thing. Everybody has evidence they believe amply shows that their faith is the true one. I’m convinced the Catholic one is correct… but it just baffles me why it’s not clearer.

But it is clear to those who truly want to know. It may take a long time for the truth to “sink in”, but that’s due to our fallen nature and not because the Gospel isn’t simple enough. It’s simple enough for a child of 7 and yet challenging enough for scholars and theologians. You are simply on the wrong tack with the idea that it’s not plain enough, that’s all.

 

[Trebor135]

Most who leave do not do so because they understood Catholicism and decided it wasn’t true. They leave for many other reasons, but that’s not the main one. So, this simply isn’t a real factor.

If people were having any real difficulty because there are so many to chose from, but that’s not the case. People leave because the Church doesn’t conform to what they want to do/think/believe. Most leave because of marriage issues and the Church’s stance on it. Recent statistics bear this out. So, they are rejecting truth not searching for it. They want the Church to change what it cannot change just to suit them and what they want to do.

But it is clear to those who truly want to know. It may take a long time for the truth to “sink in”, but that’s due to our fallen nature and not because the Gospel isn’t simple enough. It’s simple enough for a child of 7 and yet challenging enough for scholars and theologians. You are simply on the wrong tack with the idea that it’s not plain enough, that’s all.

Anecdotal evidence is never ideal, but here’s one counterexample. In a nutshell, my spiritual journey goes like this:

• I was born and raised Catholic, but accepted what the Church taught without understanding the what’s and why’s after my conversion experience on a retreat during high school;
• for a time considered becoming Protestant, but then decided against the idea after I had come to see that the Catholic side had good answers on nearly all of the common issues–Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, a visible church, salvation by faith and works, strong sacramentalism, statues and icons in church, veneration of St. Mary and her sibling saints; and
• at the moment am seriously pondering Eastern Orthodoxy, because the papacy of the second millennium looks irreconcilably different from that of the first millennium.

I would gladly return to Catholicism, but for the sake of intellectual honesty I have to follow the truth where it leads. I can’t pretend to believe in the universal jurisdiction and doctrinal infallibility of the bishop of Rome if the evidence goes against these Catholic teachings. None of the hot-button moral issues–abortion, homosexuality, contraception, divorce and remarriage–cause me any difficulty.

If anyone wishes to PM me about the foregoing, please feel welcome to do so.

 

[Della]

Anecdotal evidence is never ideal, but here’s one counterexample. In a nutshell, my spiritual journey goes like this:

• I was born and raised Catholic, but accepted what the Church taught without understanding the what’s and why’s after my conversion experience on a retreat during high school;
• for a time considered becoming Protestant, but then decided against the idea after I had come to see that the Catholic side had good answers on nearly all of the common issues–Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, a visible church, salvation by faith and works, strong sacramentalism, statues and icons in church, veneration of St. Mary and her sibling saints; and
• at the moment am seriously pondering Eastern Orthodoxy, because the papacy of the second millennium looks irreconcilably different from that of the first millennium.

I would gladly return to Catholicism, but for the sake of intellectual honesty I have to follow the truth where it leads. I can’t pretend to believe in the universal jurisdiction and doctrinal infallibility of the bishop of Rome if the evidence goes against these Catholic teachings. None of the hot-button moral issues–abortion, homosexuality, contraception, divorce and remarriage–cause me any difficulty.

If anyone wishes to PM me about the foregoing, please feel welcome to do so.

The recent survey I alluded to was for “most” Catholics who leave the Church. There are always those who have legitimate questions/concerns, and that’s okay. God knows our need to understand. But in most cases people leave because they just don’t want to conform to the Church’s moral teachings regarding sex–at least in our modern times. But thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. I hope you grow close to God and are happy in this world and the next.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

God came down here once, taught what He wanted done, established a ‘School’ with teaching authority for all who wanted to enrol, placed a School Principal to be in charge, gave him the Keys to Home and the MANUAL for how to get there!

How much easier do you want it?

It’s actually all there for ANY who want to examine the evidence!

Are there comparative school decile tables to tell us, out of the many best schools advertised, which is actually the best one? That would make it easy.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Basically, what I’m saying is if God made it very clear to everybody which is the correct religion (or if clearly showed everybody what the truth was), then it would be easier to follow or reject him, because you’d know exactly what you’re being asked to follow. Instead, we have to sift through so many different religions (and so many philosophies in each religion), take our best guess at what the truth actually is, and then decide whether to accept or reject it.

Scree
I hear you saying that we approach different religions with a partially pre-formed set of spiritual values already in place - and it is by “sifting” different religions we not only become aware of our own values but these values then challenge the religion we are looking at…and that religion likewise challenges our values.

If that is so then I agree with you. It is in this sifting “dialogue” that we encounter God. But do you notice something strange…God is not just engaging us in the “truths” of the religion that challenge us, but God is also experienced within us as we, at that same time, suddenly become aware of Values we hold dear within us. A sort of resonance takes place as “deep calls upon deep”. The deeper that resonance is experienced the more likely it is that God is calling us to find Him in that particular religion.

The point I am making is that this “sifting” is poorly understood if we make it an intellectual search/analysis for outside, objective “truth.” Faith is faith, it is not sight. It is darkness to the intellect. It is a search within as much as it is a search without. .

While I would probably hold that, in theory, the truths of the Catholic Church should create the greatest “resonance” in the pure of heart…the fact is that nobody starts out with a pure heart. But if we are truly seekers then surely we will seek out and find whatever makes that increasingly “crystalline” centre within us keep singing. All things being equal that may end up at the door of the Catholic Church but, depending on our starting point/culture, that may not always be so because the world is “muddy”.

That’s my take arising from your words anyhow.

 

[Deconi]

And yet 5/6 of the world is not Catholic.

Human intellect is God breathed! That means it is unlimited in this realm and eventually all the physical properties of the universe will be known! But included in that intellect to decipher fact from fiction is the ability to discern truth from false and all its form!

For those who adhere to God’s ways, there is the understanding that there are only two choices; good and evil. Strive always to do the ‘good’ and you will ‘find’ God and in so doing, become Catholic!..for that is what He taught and what The Church proclaims.

That ‘intellect’ will do the rest when you then sift through the evidence.

But being Catholic doesn’t protect you from looking outside the windows and being attracted to error also, for such can be the consequence of ‘intellect.’

 

[Della]

Human intellect is God breathed! That means it is unlimited in this realm and eventually all the physical properties of the universe will be known! But included in that intellect to decipher fact from fiction is the ability to discern truth from false and all its form!

For those who adhere to God’s ways, there is the understanding that there are only two choices; good and evil. Strive always to do the ‘good’ and you will ‘find’ God and in so doing, become Catholic!..for that is what He taught and what The Church proclaims.

That ‘intellect’ will do the rest when you then sift through the evidence.

But being Catholic doesn’t protect you from looking outside the windows and being attracted to error also, for such can be the consequence of ‘intellect.’

The problem being that, as fallen creatures, our intellect has been darkened, hence part of the problem with discerning for ourselves which is the true religion. We must avail ourselves of God’s grace to enlighten our intellect, which he does if we truly wish to know the truth. Still, if we have never heard of Christ and Christianity, we have no context in which to find it. In that case, God’s grace is sufficient for salvation because of the redemptive work of Christ.

 

[Contarini]

Something I’ve always wondered… If choosing and following the correct religion is so important that the rest of your eternity depends on your choice of religion in this life

Well, it doesn’t.

Response 2 -* It’s not actually important to follow the correct religion* – or – All religions are equal

Of course the challenge here is that most religions don’t actually teach this.

Well, I think you’re tackling this in far too vague a way. There’s a huge spectrum of opinion between “join this religion or go to hell” (which is actually not taught by any religion I know of except for Christianity and Islam–which admittedly are presently by far the two largest religions in the world–and not by all versions of these religions) and “all religions are equal.”

It may be important to follow the correct religion without a mistake dooming you eternally.

Catholicism teaches that it is important to follow your conscience. If you make a mistake through no fault of your own, you will not be condemned. But if you turn away from the truth out of pride or some other sinful reason, and/or if you do not sincerely strive to form your conscience, then you are culpable.

Edwin

 

[jschutzm]

Well, if I were God, I would have made sure to bring about the early and peaceable demise of the founders of Hinduism, Siddartha Gautama, Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, and the instigators of all the Christian schisms (424, 451, 1054, and 1517). Doing so would have prevented those involved from establishing religions, churches, denominations, and sects that would cause billions of souls to be lost.

I’m glad you aren’t God, then… such benevolent tyranny is still tyranny. If he finds a quick, even painless death to anyone who might found an alternate religion…then he is seriously messing with “freewill” and ALL of our abilities to freely chose him. Because in a sense, he would be creating an oppressive regime which squashes opposition.
He would also be making a mockery of justice by condemning (through mortal death) those who might in the future create counter religions… in affect prosecuting them before they have done the crime.

From a human perspective, this sets into motion a series of Temporal Paradoxes. And seriously jeopardizes the entire concept of “choice”

This is similar to the line of reasoning “why does God create certain people to burn in hell, knowing that they will grow up to reject him”

So the larger implication of such an idea is to also simply kill or not create anyone who doesn’t become a Saint.

I’d lie if I didn’t think similar thoughts myself…but we have to be careful not to think “If I were god, I’d do things better”

 

[Contarini]

This one always bothers me. In addition to being all powerful, God must also be “all naive” to think for even a second that you show up once, tell a bunch of humans what to do, and then expect them to carry on for the rest of existence with your message without power struggles, corruption, personality conflicts, greed, politics, egos, etc. derailing the whole thing in very little time. There is no other human run organization that doesn’t eventually involve most of these things without a major reorganization once in a while. We can claim that there has been some sort of divine guidance but that seems to be a tad weak to counter much stronger natural human tendencies. Maybe God really doesn’t care how many divisions of religion there are - I don’t see any evidence that God does…

Yes, the evidence clearly shows that God doesn’t understand humans at all!

No, the evidence shows that many humans of a conservative religious bent (particularly Christians and Muslims) very badly want to believe that God works in a simpler way than He really does!

If there is a God–and I believe that there is–then clearly He wants things to be confusing. Or, to put it differently, His nature is such that He cannot interact with free creatures in a way that doesn’t involve a lot of confusion.

Occasionally I tell my students “confusion is the path to wisdom.” I don’t think they believe me.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I’ve got to agree with Trebor here. My question isn’t really about permitting evil. What I’m wondering is, why is it not clearer which is the correct religion? Catholicism makes it pretty clear that it’s important to be Catholic. So important that how you spend the rest of eternity depends on it.

No. While that was the understanding at one time, more or less (something many folks on here will try to deny because it messes with their conservative view of infallibility), the Church has come to a more nuanced interpretation of “outside the Church there is no salvation.”

People of good will may be saved, according to Catholic teaching, even if they never join the Church visibly.

Your entire thread is based on a mistake.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Another response to the “all religions are equal” thing is this: If all religions are equal then how come so many of them teach contradictory things? Two things that are contradictory cannot both be the truth.

Not if they are truly contradictory.

But many things appear contradictory that are not.

Given how limited our understanding is, I marvel at the confidence with which people declare that, for instance, the Christian view of the self and the Buddhist view are contradictory.

How do you know that they aren’t two sides of the same coin?

Edwin

 

[Blue_Horizon]

No, the evidence shows that many humans of a conservative religious bent …very badly want to believe that God works in a **simpler **way than He really does!

Hard to disagree with this as it is a tautology. I would fine tune it by saying that it is in the nature of conservatism to seek clearly delinineated clarity and expressions of “truth” rather than simplicity. Educated conservative stances can be very complicated and impressive. It is prob fundamentalism that seems to seek the simplicity you speak if.

If there is a God–and I believe that there is–then clearly He wants things to be confusing. Or, to put it differently, His nature is such that He cannot interact with free creatures in a way that doesn’t involve a lot of confusion.

Basically agreed also but perhaps needs tweaking:
(a) God permits confusion (as He permits sin) because it does not ultimately thwart his goodness towards people nor his final plan for the world. It does make it harder on us though (I believe we are called to lovingly accept this difficulty as it somehow contributes to saving others who are not quite as loving or believing as us and also unites us with Jesus himself - who also suffered the same difficulties wrt his Father’s Will).

(b) Re the bit about his Nature…probably a bit excessive. It is certainly his Will not to so interact because I see many instances where God, through a totally undeserved gift, can break through the obstinancies of those who oppose or shun Him. If that is how it is with obstinancy I am quite sure he can overcome the confusion of those who try to love him if He was in a mood to. There are many examples of that in history as well. Nevertheless God seems to prefer that those destined to love him declare that love by seeking in darkness as best they can - it matters not that they may not arrive at the doors of the Catholic Church (or any other particular end point for that matter) in their lifetime.

The quality of the trajectory seems more important than the quality of any given target.

 

[George_Calleja]

Well this sort of question always comes up in our lives. My answer is simple and not complicated.

First Pray for guidance, ask God to reveal to you what is the correct religion, and I am convinced that you receive the right answer.

I believe this through my experience of life, trust God and he will show you the rest.

I am putting a lot of life experience on my website ‘Peace and unity in our lives’ with the address as [sites.google.com/site/peaceinunity](‘Peace and unity in our lives’ with the address as [URL="Peace and unity in our lives) and I really wish you and hope that you visit.

Trust God that He will give you peace in this situation

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Catholicism makes it pretty clear that it’s important to be Catholic. So important that how you spend the rest of eternity depends on it.

I have to agree with Contarini. What you write here, if taken at face value, is a significantly distorted understanding of Catholic Soteriology.

The rest of eternity does not hinge on us accepting that the Catholic Church is the one true Church simply on the basis of a casual aquaintance with Catholicism and its content.

To believe such is to assume we have the same nature’s as angels - who at the moment of their creation, in an instant, did all their logical thinking and saw all the possibilities and paths open to them for eternity and so at that very moment they necessarily and with full knowledge and understanding and freedom made all their personal life-choices at that instant.

Human nature, by reason of materiality (and a wounded nature at that) plods along in initial mental ignorance/confusion, weakness of will and general inconstancy - which however is open to slow evolution as we grow in experience, knowledge,wisdom and strength of purpose. That is what it means to be human.

To believe all such creatures will be eternally damned, no excuses for circumstance, if they do not make it to baptism (let alone Catholic belief) by the time they die offends both reason and Catholic faith itself.

 

[Contarini]

I have to agree with Contarini. What you write here, if taken at face value, is a significantly distorted understanding of Catholic Soteriology.

The rest of eternity does not hinge on us accepting that the Catholic Church is the one true Church simply on the basis of a casual aquaintance with Catholicism and its content.

To believe such is to assume we have the same nature’s as angels - who at the moment of their creation, in an instant, did all their logical thinking and saw all the possibilities and paths open to them for eternity and so at that very moment they necessarily and with full knowledge and understanding and freedom made all their personal life-choices at that instant.

Human nature, by reason of materiality (and a wounded nature at that) plods along in initial mental ignorance/confusion, weakness of will and general inconstancy - which however is open to slow evolution as we grow in experience, knowledge,wisdom and strength of purpose. That is what it means to be human.

To believe all such creatures will be eternally damned, no excuses for circumstance, if they do not make it to baptism (let alone Catholic belief) by the time they die offends both reason and Catholic faith itself.

Very nicely put!

Edwin