Following the Spirit Where He Calls...Even if That Means Leaving the Church?

[Bookcat]

“A divine inspiration cannot ask us to do something that contradicts what the Word of God teaches and asks of us. This means not the Word of God as compiled by each individual’s fantasy and interpretation, but Holy Scripture as transmitted and explained by the teaching authority of the Church. For example, a divine inspiration cannot ask me to commit acts that the Church considers immoral. In the same way, true inspirations always go in the direction of a spirit of obedience to the Church.”

~ Fr. Jacques Philippe

From the book: In the School of the Holy Spirit, p.47

frjacquesphilippe.com/theme/spiritual-discernment

 

[Kal2012]

1. A lot of people are single. Sometimes, that’s what a person is called to be. It’s not by choice really, but just what happened. They just never met the right gal or guy and and it wasn’t due to the lack of trying.
2. Make sure you are actually following the Spirit and not a whim or emotion.
3. I think you are confusing judgment with tolerance.

It isn’t our job to judge people for their sins. That’s God’s job.

However, we should show mercy to others because we are all sinners who fall short of the glory (yep…I’m another former Baptist.)

We should love and accept people where they are. The church does this.

However, the church also makes it clear that sin shouldn’t be tolerated.

Just because I tolerate someone’s behavior doesn’t mean that I support or endorse it.

However, you can still love your friends and relatives, even if they are participating in something that you don’t agree with.

I tolerate things all the time that I don’t agree with because we live in a free society and other people are allowed to make different choices than I would.

That’s the freedom that God grants each and everyone of us - free will.

For example, we are not responsible for the salvation of other people - only the other person can choose to accept the gift. We can share the gospel all we want, but the listener has to choose to accept Jesus as their savior. It’s not just a one-way street - and most of us, if we are honest - really wouldn’t want that responsibility.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… why is Catholicism the only religion that does not even accept an ounce of human frailty and uncertainty? …

There are always going to be people around who give this impression. They always seem to make an exception for themselves anyway, don’t they! I was just reminiscing with a friend about some church fellow members that messed us about a great deal. We have exchanged many wry smiles today.

You say you are isolated - if you live in a rural area I don’t know what to suggest.

You have a very rich past - I suggest you maintain (and evolve) your past relationships with the members of other denominations as long as you don’t mix up Communion. They have the same Scriptures and the same Jesus Christ, as long as they are not seriously off the rails.

I’ve always benefitted from relationships across ecclesial communities (though born Catholic myself). Maybe this is part of God’s gift to you as well? They need your witness too.

Sadly some parishes and dioceses are unwilling to organise Bible studies. In my observation that can sometimes be got round by just inviting acquaintances to join you for one, unofficially. I’m not doing this myself, currently - it might happen if someone else can help rally the “troops”.

Ditto prayer meetings.

 

[runningdude]

I am a convert of about five years to Catholicism. Before converting, my faith journey involved being raised in a Baptist household, attending Episcopal services on my own, and charismatic prayer with a non-denominational group. I have always believed in following the Holy Spirit wherever He called, and for the past five years that call has, undeniably, been to a life in the Catholic Church.

But this past weekend, something changed.

Although I follow the Holy Spirit when He calls, there have always been a few things about the Catholic Faith that niggled at me…

That being said, I do not wish to lead anyone to scandal, so if you feel as though even responding to this question with anything other than replies like the ones bolded in the paragraph above…or omitting to do so would put you in a state of moral sin…I get it. But if you have thoughts on this…they are welcome.

I won’t presume to answer all your questions in a single post. However, I share some of your concern regarding homosexual marriage. I am an amateur expert in theology, and this issue blows my mind.

All I can say is that it is a simple fact that God loves everybody. The rules are not meant to be all or nothing, but part of a continuum of grace. Everybody fails, but we were built for grace and naturally strive for grace. It is only when we specifically reject grace that we sin mortally.

Being built for grace, cutting oneself off completely is quite difficult. It cannot be cut off with a single missed mass. It cannot be cut off with a good faith effort at finding love. It certainly cannot be cut off by answering a single question honestly and with compassion.

This is perhaps where the Catholic Church differs from Baptists. Baptists teach that humanity is hopelessly corrupted by sin, and can only be redeemed by the immediate grace of accepting Jesus as one’s personal savior…

The Catholic Church believes all persons possess grace, and must pray to drag them all kicking and screaming up to heaven. People sin, and distance themselves from God all the time. It is indifference to this distance from God, rather than any one action, that causes us to lose grace.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I won’t presume to answer all your questions in a single post. However, I share some of your concern regarding homosexual marriage. I am an amateur expert in theology, and this issue blows my mind.

All I can say is that it is a simple fact that God loves everybody. The rules are not meant to be all or nothing, but part of a continuum of grace. Everybody fails, but we were built for grace and naturally strive for grace. It is only when we specifically reject grace that we sin mortally.

Being built for grace, cutting oneself off completely is quite difficult. It cannot be cut off with a single missed mass. It cannot be cut off with a good faith effort at finding love. It certainly cannot be cut off by answering a single question honestly and with compassion.

This is perhaps where the Catholic Church differs from Baptists. Baptists teach that humanity is hopelessly corrupted by sin, and can only be redeemed by the immediate grace of accepting Jesus as one’s personal savior…

The Catholic Church believes all persons possess grace, and must pray to drag them all kicking and screaming up to heaven. People sin, and distance themselves from God all the time. It is indifference to this distance from God, rather than any one action, that causes us to lose grace.

Runningdude,
Where are you when I need you? I get such slack for saying stuff like the above.
Some on these threads are harsher than God will ever be!

I agree very much with all you’ve said. I wish I understood better what you mean by baptists believing as they do. Do you mean that calvinist, depraved nature idea?

I wouldn’t go that far, but I also believe in the sin nature as described by Paul, especially in the book of Romans, and our need for a savior to transform that nature.

As far as the O.P.'s question, I do think that the reason it’s being brought up is precisely because of what you say above - sometimes we make it too difficult and we lose hope or determination. It should never get to this point.

Fran

 

[runningdude]

Runningdude,
Where are you when I need you? I get such slack for saying stuff like the above.
Some on these threads are harsher than God will ever be!

I agree very much with all you’ve said. I wish I understood better what you mean by baptists believing as they do. Do you mean that calvinist, depraved nature idea?

I wouldn’t go that far, but I also believe in the sin nature as described by Paul, especially in the book of Romans, and our need for a savior to transform that nature.

As far as the O.P.'s question, I do think that the reason it’s being brought up is precisely because of what you say above - sometimes we make it too difficult and we lose hope or determination. It should never get to this point.

Fran

With the writings of Saint Paul, both flesh and spirit are intimately tied together in human nature. Living according the “flesh”, cuts the body and spirit apart, killing the soul. The spirit is oriented to God; Saint Paul encourages us to live according to our Godly-oriented nature.

Christ came to pay the price for Adam’s disobedience, which was death. Having paid the price, despite having a blameless soul, he was able to rise from the dead. The infinite value of his sacrifice allows us all to rise as well.

I believe you are correct that I am primarily contrasting with most specifically Calvinist beliefs; my main exposure to “Baptists” were actually through conversations with a Non-Denominationalist, so her beliefs might not be quite representative of Baptists in general. Calvinists believe that only the “elect”, though chosen by God, will be saved. Catholics believe that we “elect” ourselves by living according to the spirit, and strengthening it with the graces of the sacraments empowered by Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross.

The difficulty for the Catholic faithful is knowing that we must live holy lives so that do not take God’s grace for granted and distance ourselves. We’re so close, we have further to fall. It can extraordinarily frustrating that those with no understanding can live apparently “according to the flesh”, give in to all temptation, and not be cut off from all grace. Bless them, for the know not what they do. They place themselves at such spiritual risk, and cause untold damage. But Christ warns us not to be jealous of the laborers who worked one hour, because salvation is his gift to give, and their salvation does not detract from ours.

We must trust that whatever God’s choice it will be just.

 

[frangiuliano115]

With the writings of Saint Paul, both flesh and spirit are intimately tied together in human nature. Living according the “flesh”, cuts the body and spirit apart, killing the soul. The spirit is oriented to God; Saint Paul encourages us to live according to our Godly-oriented nature.

Christ came to pay the price for Adam’s disobedience, which was death. Having paid the price, despite having a blameless soul, he was able to rise from the dead. The infinite value of his sacrifice allows us all to rise as well.

I believe you are correct that I am primarily contrasting with most specifically Calvinist beliefs; my main exposure to “Baptists” were actually through conversations with a Non-Denominationalist, so her beliefs might not be quite representative of Baptists in general. Calvinists believe that only the “elect”, though chosen by God, will be saved. Catholics believe that we “elect” ourselves by living according to the spirit, and strengthening it with the graces of the sacraments empowered by Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross.

The difficulty for the Catholic faithful is knowing that we must live holy lives so that do not take God’s grace for granted and distance ourselves. We’re so close, we have further to fall. It can extraordinarily frustrating that those with no understanding can live apparently “according to the flesh”, give in to all temptation, and not be cut off from all grace. Bless them, for the know not what they do. They place themselves at such spiritual risk, and cause untold damage. But Christ warns us not to be jealous of the laborers who worked one hour, because salvation is his gift to give, and their salvation does not detract from ours.

We must trust that whatever God’s choice it will be just.

Beautifully explained.

Regarding your past pp. No jealousy! Just think of what the ones who don’t know are missing! A friend of mine, many years ago, was upset that one could be saved at the last moment of life. After all she did to be “good”. I told her, Yes, but think of what he missed - without Jesus all his life. Peace I leave you, MY peace I give you.

He did because He loved
We do because we love

It’s a full circle.

Fran

 

[peter26]

1. I can’t help you much on the first point you make as I fully agree with the church’s teachings on this subject, but I would encourage you to reflect on the purpose of marriage.
2. The very wide scope of sin is I’m sure hard for everyone. Missing Mass is not a sin if you are ill incidentally. If you really want to visit another church, this is not prohibited (but do not receive communion in a non-Catholic church), providing you also attend Mass. So if you wanted to see what church x does, you could go to a vigil Mass and go there on Sunday morning. This might be helpful as an academic exercise, and I don’t think you’d find a better liturgy than a reverent Mass (even if you may find the preaching more inspiring).
3. Tolerance of sin is not a good thing. Nor is tolerating sin showing love to your neighbour. Although written in a slightly different context, the epistle of St. Jude is instructive on this point. It is charitable to correct those who are in sin, and this may even resort to a rather harsh rebuke in order to save them from hell.
4. There is no rule that you can not date a non-Catholic. There are certain reasons it may be desirable to do so, such as knowing and following the church’s teachings on sexuality, contraception etc. But you won’t be drummed out of the church if you fall for a non-Catholic.
5. If you want to meet more people from your ethnicity, have you considered attending an Eastern Rite church?