For apologetics - what are some things that have pagan origins?

[Guest1]

You know we’re around Christmas time…so you might hear people saying Christmas trees ect are pagan.

Well, just because something has pagan origins that doesn’t mean Christians can’t baptize it right? For Christian use?

Embalming has pagan origins…correct me if wrong please. What else? I can write down a list.

 

[humbleseeker]

Wedding rings

 

[JSRG]

You know we’re around Christmas time…so you might hear people saying Christmas trees ect are pagan.

Well, just because something has pagan origins that doesn’t mean Christians can’t baptize it right? For Christian use?

Embalming has pagan origins…correct me if wrong please. What else? I can write down a list.

I don’t think this sort of argument (“if you think Christmas trees are pagan, well then what about all this other stuff that’s pagan that you use?”) is very good, because all the person has to do is say “you’re right, I won’t use that other stuff either” and then your argument is sunk.

But in the case of Christmas trees, this is unnecessary, as there seems little evidence they are of pagan origin. The usual argument is to point to some pagan usage of trees in the distant past and then liken it to a Christmas tree, claiming that the Christmas tree was brought into Catholicism to try to appease the pagan converts or whatever. Here’s the problem. As far as I can tell (but someone is free to correct me if I am wrong), the first actual references we have to Christmas trees as we think of them comes long, long after that time–they first show up in the 15th/16th centuries. That’s such a long gap that any resemblance to an ancient pagan usage of trees is almost certainly coincidental.

Some claim that St. Boniface (8th century) originated the Christmas tree by repurposing a pagan custom, but this appears to be a legendary claim made long after the fact–I have seen no one able to point to the original source for this idea, and it runs in the face of the lack of mentions of Christmas trees in the intervening period.

 

[humbleseeker]

Christmas trees, this is unnecessary, as there seems little evidence they are of pagan origin

If they are not of a pagan cultural origin, where did the tradition come from? I don’t recall them being mentioned in the New Testament.

 

[JSRG]

JSRG:

Christmas trees, this is unnecessary, as there seems little evidence they are of pagan origin

If they are not of a pagan cultural origin, where did the tradition come from? I don’t recall them being mentioned in the New Testament.

It’s not clear exactly what caused people to start using them. Most likely it was just an idea a few people had and then others thought it was cool and followed suit and thus it eventually spread.

But that’s a bit besides the point. The question is, is it based on pagan religious practices? The answer seems to be no. If it were, we would expect to see usage of Christmas trees starting around the time paganism was an actual thing rather than starting around the 15th century, long after paganism was effectively extinct.

 

[njlisa]

Here’s an article about the Christmas tree from EWTN’s Christian history library.

 

[humbleseeker]

around the time paganism was an actual thing

I believe we are using different definitions of paganism. In this instance I’m referencing any religious practice or ceremony outside of Christianity. Therefor, “paganism” has always existed.

is it based on pagan religious practices?

Yes. The use of evergreens inside your home is based on a pagan religious practice. But so what? Christians don’t use it for religious reasons, it’s just a cultural tradition that’s carried on through generations. And that’s all it is, a cultural tradition. The Christmas tree has nothing to do with the practice of Christianity. The old cultural use of evergreens just happens to coincide with the Christian religious celebration of the birth of Christ and the two traditions have blended over the years.

 

[JSRG]

JSRG:

around the time paganism was an actual thing

I believe we are using different definitions of paganism. In this instance I’m referencing any religious practice or ceremony outside of Christianity. Therefor, “paganism” has always existed.

Normally “pagan” refers to the pre-Christian polytheistic religions like the Greek/Roman religions, Egyptian religions, etc. The only time I’ve seen someone use your definition, or something close to it, as Mortimer J. Adler in his book “How to Think About God: A Guide for the 20th Century Pagan” but he made a point of clearly giving a definition for his usage of the word ‘pagan’ to avoid any confusion.

is it based on pagan religious practices?

Yes. The use of evergreens inside your home is based on a pagan religious practice.

And what is the proof of this? You can’t simply say “pagans used evergreens” (assuming that is the case) you have to show an actual link that it was based on it. Or, at the very least, account for the 1000+ year gap between the usage of it by pagans and the usage of it by Christians. To claim it was based on the pagan usage requires the belief that about 1000 years after it was abandoned, some Christians decided to look into history and dredge up some old pagan practices for no particular reason. That appears highly unlikely. Certainly no proof of such has been offered. Thus, any similarity would appear coincidental.

More plausibly, if evergreens were used by pagans around the winter time, it was used because they are a common tree that keeps its leaves in the winter. And with Christmas being in the winter, if you were going to use any trees or plants, you’ll want to use the ones that don’t end up looking barren during the winter.

The most likely explanation for any alleged similarity between pagan festival usage of evergreen trees and Christian use of them is that the pagans used it for convenience sake, then it was forgotten about for 1000+ years, then Christians (completely independent of prior pagan usage) started doing it because, again, it as the tree that didn’t lose its leaves in the winter. Thus, any prior pagan usage of such would be, in the absence of any evidence demonstrating an actual connection, coincidental.

 

[humbleseeker]

You can’t simply say “pagans used evergreens” (assuming that is the case) you have to show an actual link that it was based on it.

http://www.christmastreehistory.net/pagan

The point of this thread was to point out things with pagan origins. Yes, the modern Christmas tree we know and use today has developed and grown popular since the 16th century. But the very idea of using evergreens in a dwelling is pagan and goes back before and outside Christian tradition. That’s all I’m saying. I’m done detailing this thread. Have a Merry Christmas, with or without a tree(because it’s use as a decoration is just a cultural tradition, not a religious practice).

 

[GordonP]

What else?

Incense. Incense was a big part of Roman religion, and they burned it daily not only in their temples and shrines, but also in their private homes. Frankincense was a commodity that had to be imported from what is now Somalia and Yemen, and it was a major part of the economy of that region.

Early Christians did not use incense, not only because of its association with Pagan religion, but also because of its association with apostasy. When you read lives of the martyrs and it says that they refused to make an offering to the Emperor, it was specifically an offering of frankincense that was usually meant.

When Christianity replaced Paganism, the international incense trade collapsed, impoverishing the regions where it is gathered. It was only after several centuries that the stigma wore off and Christians slowly started using incense again.

Another thing is the title Pontifex Maximus for the Pope. The Pontifex Maximus was the title used by the chief Pagan priest in ancient Rome.

 

[JerryZ]

Uhmmm Incense and Myrrh were known and used by the Israelites they are mentioned in the Old Testament as well as in the New, although in some translations incense is referred to as “Frankincense”

 

[GordonP]

Uhmmm Incense and Myrrh were known and used by the Israelites they are mentioned in the Old Testament as well as in the New, although in some translations incense is referred to as “Frankincense”

It was not borrowed from Jewish worship. Jews also had stopped using incense when the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. It was not used in synagogue worship.

 

[JSRG]

JSRG:

You can’t simply say “pagans used evergreens” (assuming that is the case) you have to show an actual link that it was based on it.

Pagan Origins of the Christmas Tree

The point of this thread was to point out things with pagan origins. Yes, the modern Christmas tree we know and use today has developed and grown popular since the 16th century. But the very idea of using evergreens in a dwelling is pagan and goes back before and outside Christian tradition. That’s all I’m saying. I’m done detailing this thread. Have a Merry Christmas, with or without a tree(because it’s use as a decoration is just a cultural tradition, not a religious practice).

That page you point to is high on claims… rather low on actual proof for its assertions. Given the frequency with which I’ll see people claim some pagan religion had such and such a practice, and it turns out there’s not proof of it, I take such claims with a grain of salt.

But even if we suppose all of its claims about pagan usage of evergreens is accurate, this doesn’t show any actual link. It just says that pagan festivals used evergreens but doesn’t demonstrate an actual link between their usage and that of Christians. For example, it claims it was used during Saturnalia. Okay… but Saturnalia was abolished long, long before there was any recorded usage of the Christmas tree. Why would Christians about a millennia later suddenly deliberately adopt traditions that no one had followed for a thousand years? The obvious conclusion is that the Christians had no intention whatsoever of mimicking any pagan practice, but instead were just using the trees that happened to look good around Christmas, making any similarity coincidental.

EDIT: To clarify, by “look good around Christmas” I mean that, unlike most trees in winter (and therefore Christmas), evergreens still had their leaves and were attractive looking unlike the other barren trees.

 

[GordonP]

Nice try, but no cigar. Christians rejected the use of incense precise at the height of their obsession with “recreating” Jewish Temple worship, or at least what they imagined it had been, in the early fourth century. So it is clear that they did not consider it a Jewish practice. It didn’t appear again in the West until the seventh century, long after Jews had stopped thinking of it as a Jewish practice.

 

[Agnus-Dei]

Please refrain from blasting me, here goes:
Paganism and Catholicism have a few similarities.
Catholic: god the father
Pagan: Male part of creation
Catholic: Mary mother of god
Pagan: Female part of creation.
Catholic: communion of saints
Pagan: gods/lesser deities /other spirits etc.
Catholic: communion bread and wine
Pagan: cakes and ale ceremony
Catholic: religious medals/chaplets/rosaries/scapulars
Pagan: various charms, talismans, and such
Catholic: Animal mention (Lion of Judah, Lamb of god)
Pagan: Any Egyptian god fits here really. Irish: Rhiannon/Macha/Mare.
Most regular holidays have a near same date for celebration in both belief systems. Too many to list here in one post.
I have read that since pagan practices were the norm before Christianity came to be, many things were borrowed and adapted to suit the new system. This also let the people observe celebration days they were used to, with different focus.
Dominus vobiscum

 

[Agnus-Dei]

Fair enough. I was trying to be general enough to compare without going for the doctorate dissertation. (Mary) I had been going along with the idea that all beliefs before Christianity were “pagan”. (Jews are the interesting exception). This would only be believable if one accepted the bible as real, and true. If not, then you’ve got the pagans first. Seems like in impasse without “faith” in the bible.
I don’t usually “worry” about “who took what from whom?” But this is an interesting topic.
Im still finding my own way through things, and learning all the time.
Christmas, Saturnalia, winter solstice, Feast of Epona, are pretty close. I still appreciate solstice since from now the days get longer. I’m not a winter person. Seems odd that the days get longer, but winter is just beginning. Seemed like winter here three weeks ago when it was 7F out. My un-official holiday is “spring-forward” with the clocks also.
Dominus vobiscum

 

[Agnus-Dei]

Yup. Faith in the bible timeline, pagans came in second after Jews.
No bible beliefs, pagans were first, and Christians adopted suitable things.
Dominus vobiscum