? for former anti-Catholics concerning the anti-Christ

[Catholic4aReasn]

Hi everyone!

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question, especially if you’re a former anti-Catholic.

I recently had a conversation with someone who said that she read the book of Revelation with an “open mind” (no preconceived notions or outside influences) and concluded herself that the papacy is the anti-Christ. How is this remotely possible?

Thanks again!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Kristina_P]

The Catholic Church is the largest organization on Earth and has members in pretty much every nation. It has one man as its leader. There’s the whole seven hills thing. People have a false impression that the Catholic Church is fabulously wealthy. People are unfamiliar with the teachings and practices of the Catholic Church, which appear foreign and sinister to them. People think that the Catholic Church is responsible for millions of deaths. I could go on and on. It is possible to come to this conclusion, but that doesn’t make the conclusion right. I think it’s important to look at the term anti-Christ. It’s kind of like Bizarro-world Superman, in that there will be similarities between Christ (and His church) and the anti-Christ (and his followers). Therefore, some people might get them confused. We wouldn’t have to worry about the anti-Christ unless there were some things about him that seemed good.
Finally, this woman may claim an open mind and no influences, but no one is ever truly open-minded. It’s impossible.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Catholic4aReasn:

I recently had a conversation with someone who said that she read the book of Revelation with an “open mind” (no preconceived notions or outside influences) and concluded herself that the papacy is the anti-Christ. How is this remotely possible?

Well the term “papacy” or “pope” is not found in Revelation, so right there is a preconceived notion.

The most likely answer is a cut and paste job off a wacked out protestant site like Chick.com

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Catholic Dude:

Well the term “papacy” or “pope” is not found in Revelation, so right there is a preconceived notion.

Good point!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[St.Curious]

Hello, former anti-Catholic here. Well, not so much so, but I was raised in an LCMS Luthern Church, which as most know, believe the Papacy is a vehicle for the Anti-Christ.

Alright, here we go…

It is ignorant for a person to claim they have read anything without preconceived notions that is as large and imbedded as religion. It simply isn’t possible.

And now that that has been addressed…

The LCMS believes, and they could be right one day (who knows) that the office of the papacy will be a vehicle for the Anti-Christ. Not that the Pope himself is one or that the office is anti-christian, but that they office may become a vehicle for the anti-christ. What does that mean? Simple, a future Pope or someone who uses that office in some other way may be the Anti-Christ.

As for your friend…

The only way they could get that the Pope is the Anti-Christ from Revelations is through preconceived notion. It’s as easy as for me to read it and claim that Jesse Jackson is the Anti-Christ, which I’m sure meets all of the listed criteria if the Pope meets it.

Amen.

 

[spanky]

St.Curious:

The LCMS believes, and they could be right one day (who knows) that the office of the papacy will be a vehicle for the Anti-Christ. Not that the Pope himself is one or that the office is anti-christian, but that they office may become a vehicle for the anti-christ. What does that mean? Simple, a future Pope or someone who uses that office in some other way may be the Anti-Christ.

I think they assert something more certain than “will be” or “may be.” If my memory serves me correctly, the LCMS doctrine “Of the AntiChrist” states the AntiChrist “is” fulfilled by the pope in Rome.

I’d provide a link to this doctrine, but their web page is down at the moment (lcms.org).

 

[St.Curious]

You’re right Spanky, I suppose I was being kind. Here we are…

(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.)

[Adopted 1932]

1. As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist “as God sitteth in the temple of God,” 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ’s sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation – these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is “the very Antichrist.” (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)

 

[mercygate]

Not sure how to answer your question, but it seems perfectly rational for Protestants to consider the Pope the anti-Christ. This may be the ONLY rational protestant assessment of the papacy. If the Pope/papacy is *not *the anti-Christ, then what possible reason could there be for rejecting the Church?

 

[lightoftheworld]

If I were a Protestant (unless I was a liberal Protestant or maybe an Anglican) I would have to believe that the Papacy is the Antichrist. There are several reasons for this:

1. This was the belief of the Protestant Reformers
2. How else can I explain the existence and power of the Catholic Faith?
3. Revelation 17-18 and Revelation 13 appear to be prophesying a world-wide Harlot church. If I am a Protestant, praying to Mary or saints is idolatry, and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not worship, it’s sacrilege.
4. Hence, in the Protestant worldview, the Papacy is the most logical Antichrist candidate and the Whore of Babylon is most likely the Roman Catholic Church.

In my preterist viewpoint, Babylon is Pagan Rome, the Beast from the Sea is Ceasar (Domitian most likely), the Beast from the Land is the Imperial Cult, and the Millenial Reign is the Reign of the Martyrs found in the Communion of Saints. (See Revelation 13, 17-19).

I have also seen the minority Preterist viewpoint which I admit has good evidence but I just don’t think it was the meaning of the Apocalypse, which has the Beast from the Sea (usually viewed as the Antichrist) being Ceasar, but the beast from the Land (False Prophet) the apostate Jewish Priesthood, and the Whore apostate Jerusalem. I just, however, see too much evidence contrary to that, most of all, St. Peter’s clearly calling Rome “Babylon” (1 Pet. 3: 15).

This brings up an interesting viewpoint by the way. I have seen the notion that fundamentalist Islam is the Beast from the sea and the False Prophet being Mohammed. Does this seem credible?

There is also, the laughable and pathetically researched The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop that is so atrocious that it makes the duh-Vinci code look like it qualifies as a history textbook.

This does not get into the reason the anti-Catholics view the Apocalypse this way: they have a poor knowledge of history, as mentioned above, and hence, they believe that the Catholic Church has killed millions of “Bible-believing” Christians. That’s the reason in one sentence. Very few Protestants will give the traditional Reformed or Lutheran reasons.

As somebody who converted from atheism to the Faith, I am interested in how hard it must be psychologically to get away from the spiritual pornography of Chick and his ilk. I myself before I became a Catholic was used to hearing horror stories of the “true nature” of Catholicism. Now, five, six years later, I am barely being able to banish these horrifying notions from my head. As a result, I personally believe that Protestantism is not only a heresy, it is a dangerous heresy, for it fills the mind with sick and twisted views of the Bride of Christ, Holy Mother Church. This goes for ecumenical Protestants as well. One seemingly cannot be a Protestant without being at one point or the other, an anti-Catholic.

Anyways, I would welcome more comments on this manner.

God bless,

Peter Rowe

 

[St.Curious]

And as an aside, the Rastafarian religion considers the white race to be “Babylon” and has a deep hatred for it.

Just throwing in my two cents there.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation

I thought that even anti-Catholics believed that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. The Lutherans don’t believe that?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[spanky]

St. Curious,

I just noticed that the LCMS does not use Revelation to make their point on this issue. Do you know if Luther used the Book of Revelation to support his view? or did that come later with other denominations?