For Mijoy

[Mysty101]

Mijoy,

I originally posted this in the other thread, but that thread is such a mess, perhaps we can try to help you if we start over.

I am sorry for contributing to the mess regarding Tongues, but I am a daily Communicant, and connected with a Catholic prayer group, under the guidance of our Pastor, who does attend regularly–also connected with a Catholic Conference under the Archdiocese. I cannot let these personal opinions slam the wonderful Charismatic movement.

I visited the Holyland in 1999, One of the highlights of the trip was standing in the Cenacle (upper room) praying with all the groups of Pilgrims from many different countries, hearing the Tongues rise up in one voice of praise. It was truly the “Language of Angels”

True, it is not for everyone, and some people have had bad experiences, but from what was reported, this was not handled correctly… Uncontrolable tongues coming up spontaneously at inappropriate times is something which must be addressed. This is not a prayer or praise tongue.

I am not saying there are no authentic non-Catholic groups, but I am very Catholic, and just as I would not attend a non Catholic Mass, I would not attend a non-Catholic prayer group. I have no objection to an ecumenical service, as long as there is some Catholic leadership present to advise me if there may be something against Catholic teaching in a talk, which I may not pick up.

That being said I will try to address some of your questions

Originally Posted by Mijoy2

*Seems we’d all be better off with out the apparitions then the debate over thier authenticities. Why not more often? Why not more corresponding miracles/ What about Medjugorje? Does this discredit Fatima and Lourdes? *

The Catholic Church is very cautious in approving apparitions. I believe they will not approve until the apparitions and messages cease, to be certain that nothing in error will come from the alleged apparition. Again, this is not for everyone, and you are not obligated to believe even approved apparitions. If it bothers you—try to put it out of your mind. It is not something for you to distress over, since it is not a required belief. Non-belief in an apparition is definitely not an indication of weak Faith. I am sort of undecided about apparitions, especially non-approved. I have never been to an apparition site, but I have heard that once you go—you believe.

I will pull up some of your other questions.

Love & Prayers,

SuZ

 

[Mysty101]

From Mijoy–Perhaps someone can help here.

Biblical Prophesies:
They are written in very symbolic language of which many interpretations can be had (and many do). With a book of 1200 pages of small print, in symbolic language we could make a case that giraffes can fly if we spent enough time. Remeber how in the 60’s someone found enough proof in Beatle records and album covers to “prove” Paul McCarney was dead? Does this discredit Isaiah 53?

 

[Joysong]

Regarding prophecies, they are true, fulfilled, and often hidden:

• Prov. 25:2, “God has glory in what He conceals, kings have glory in what they fathom.”

We read in the scriptures that Jesus spoke in parables, and the disciples questioned Him as to the reason. Mt. 13:11,13: "To you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but them it is not given. -skip- “Seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, neither do they understand.”

My guess is that Jesus knew their hearts, and that no matter what He taught, they were mentally determined to challenge and oppose Him. To them, he concealed His message until such time as they experienced repentence and conversion, or until true faith was birthed within them. We know, faith is truly a gift, not something we exact from the Almighty.

I also believe repentence is basic to opening the doors of our souls to Him. Without it, there is no true “baptism.” There is a lovely passage in Sirach 6:32-37 that reads:

“My son, if you wish, you can be taught; if you apply yourself, you will be shrewd. If you are willing to listen, you will learn; if you give heed, you will be wise. Frequent the company of the elders; whoever is wise, stay close to him. Be eager to hear every godly discourse; let no wise saying escape you. If you see a man of prudence, seek him out; let your feet wear away his doorstep! Reflect on the precepts of the Lord, let His commandments be your constant meditation; then He will enlighten your mind, and the wisdom you desire He will grant.”

With God’s peace, joy and light,
Carole

 

[Mijoy2]

The greatest contributor to my Faith, outside of the Holy Spirit of course, is the love and willingness of others (such as Mysty101 and Joysong) who humbly express thier faith to me. Thier absence of pride and the shear concern of the faith of others speaks for itself.

I think my problem is purely and intellectual one. My heart wants to believe, my mind wants to inhibit this belief. Christianity, purely on it’s own merit (Historic, Bible (word of God), the apparent Truths of it’s teachings etc) seem to go right to the heart and I hope beyond hope itself that it is true.

Issues that go counter to the logic of Christianity are such things as the divisions of the Faith. The Protestant denominations, the entire story of Martin Luther, Mormons and other Christian factions that are all in dispute. All of these groups have very intelligent people who can do a very good job of evangelizing for thier respective side. Who am I to say I know more? I can’t look a well informed Evangelist in the eye and say conclusively I am right and they are wrong (not even to myself).

It simply hurts my faith and I am certain it hurts the faith of others in the same way.

Nothing would strenghten my faith more then the coming together of all these Christian sects. I hold no hope this will happen. What does it say when we can’t agree on the interpretation of the Bible? Does it lend credence to the fact the Bible is possibly deliberately constructed in a manner that it is confusing interpert? Is it written in a manner that we can extract our own interpretation?

I think that my point in the other thread was not necassarily looking for direct answers to these questions. The point was more that I witness others in these threads that are seemingly very well informed and intelligent people who do not struggle with these doubts as I do.

I repectively wonder why. It’s one of three reasons as I see it.

1. Grace. They simply KNOW thier faith to be true.
2. They are intellectually satisfied. They may have teeny doubt but are generally satisfied.
3. They are brainwashed. Possibly self-brainwashed.

Of course I pray it is not the later. What troubles me about #1 is the obvious question of; why would the Holy Spirit give the gift of Faith to two individuals differently?

Let me attempt to highlight this with an example. Two wonderful God loving men whose knowledge, intelligence and Faith I greatly admire. Scott Hahn (whom I believe the vast majority in these threads feel the same way as I) and Hank Hannegraff (who many probably know but are admittedly in disagreement with). If I were locked in a room with either of these men for a few hours while they evangelized they’d each evangelize in extremely convincing ways yet they’d disagree on many vital points (Mary, The true presence, Purgatory etc). It’s not so much the indivdual issues that troubles me (i’ve read countless agruments from both sides)as the simple fact that these two men who have each dedicated thier lives to learning mroe and more about the faith are in such disagreement. It forces me to ask, what am I, the layman to believe? I obviously can’t spend every waking minute gathering evidence to support each and every side and come to a conclusive conclusion. In fact I bet if I spent two lifetimes I’d still be able to see logic in both sides.

The issue is simply this for me. The fact that there is debate over vital aspects of our faith, weakens my faith. It would seem logical for me that all powerful God would have given us, in His word, a more undebateable story. He said Satan will not prevail over the Church. But isn’t Satan prevailing in this manner? If we cannot agree on the fundementals?

Thank you, I appreciate your efforts tremendously

 

[Mijoy2]

Joysong:

“My son, if you wish, you can be taught; if you apply yourself, you will be shrewd. If you are willing to listen, you will learn; if you give heed, you will be wise. Frequent the company of the elders; whoever is wise, stay close to him. Be eager to hear every godly discourse; let no wise saying escape you. If you see a man of prudence, seek him out; let your feet wear away his doorstep! Reflect on the precepts of the Lord, let His commandments be your constant meditation; then He will enlighten your mind, and the wisdom you desire He will grant.”

With God’s peace, joy and light,
Carole

This tells me to keep searching. I guess there is no other way. I hope my doubts are not sinful in themselves.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Mijoy,

Mike, your words are very kind, which can only issue forth from a loving and sincere heart. I hope we can prevail on your goodness to share a few more scriptures with you to put your mind at rest and enable you to walk in peace.

I think my problem is purely and intellectual one. My heart wants to believe, my mind wants to inhibit this belief

.

Issues that go counter to the logic of Christianity are such things as the divisions of the Faith. It simply hurts my faith and I am certain it hurts the faith of others in the same way.

Does it lend credence to the fact the Bible is possibly deliberately constructed in a manner that it is confusing to interpret? Is it written in a manner that we can extract our own interpretation?
Not at all, which is why He gave us the Church, who will see to it that we are given the Lord’s true interpretation. As for nonessential verses that many enter into futile arguments over, spare yourself the agony of useless debate, for the opponent has no intention of letting you win. With such a one, it is an intellectual battle.

I respectively wonder why. It’s one of three reasons as I see it.

1. Grace. They simply KNOW their faith to be true.
2. They are intellectually satisfied. They may have teeny doubt but are generally satisfied.
3. They are brainwashed. Possibly self-brainwashed. You probably will not recognize the Act of Faith some of us older Catholics memorized, but I think it says a great deal about your reason #1:

“O my God! I firmly believe that Thou art one God in three Divine Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; I believe that Thy Divine Son became man, and died for our sins, and that He will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe these and all the truths which the Holy Catholic Church teaches, because Thou hast revealed them, Who can neither deceive nor be deceived.”

Our faith is in God Who reveals Himself to man, and Who is the Divine Spouse of His Church whom He guides through His Holy Spirit. Stop there, good friend, and go no further with mental anguish trying to flesh out the myriad arguments that instill themselves into your thinking and keep you in mental bondage.

I am so fond of Sirach’s wisdom in Ch. 3:20-23:
*“What is too sublime for you, seek not, into things beyond your strength search not. What is committed to you, attend to; for what is hidden is not your concern. *
*With what is too much for you, meddle not, when shown things beyond human understanding. Their own opinion has misled many, and false reasoning unbalanced their judgment." *
**
The verses redirect man’s useless, unprofitable effort, saying instead, “What is committed to you attend to.” And what might that be? Micah 6:8, “You have been told, O man, what is good and what the Lord requires of you, only to do the right and to love goodness, and to walk humbly with your God.”

So simple, isn’t it? I cannot grasp the intellectualism and theology of a Scott Hahn - it’s way over my head! But we don’t need any of it at all, in order to believe in God, love Him, and walk humbly with Him, attending to what He has committed to us. When more is needed, you can really trust Him to lay it in your path and help you understand it. Until then, we have to be content to serve Him at table in the low places, until He graciously invites us higher.

Please know I’ll be praying for you, and I truly believe you will be ok and experience full faith and trust.

Carole

 

[tru_dvotion]

Mike, you mention admiring Scott Hahn and Hank Hannegraff. I have to admit I do not admire either, although Hahn’s interpretations sound more Catholic than Hannegraff’s. But of the two, Hannegraff’s theology is far less dangerous than Hahn’s. You see, Hahn got so close to the truth, that his failings are not as readily perceived as Hannegraff’s. For instance, Hahn’s explanation of the first sin was a monumental mistake. His proposal regarding the first sin totally destabilized our traditional understanding. (Hahn says Adam sinned first, not Eve) Evidently, he never red 1 Tim 2: 14: “And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression,” and 2 Cor 11:3: “I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness…” So here is my question? Why study convert-theology, when you could be investigating the inspired writings of our doctors? But in the final analysis I have to agree with Carol, that even if by our natures we are inclined to investigate from an intellectual vantage point, we have to remember to walk with filial humility. No matter how thick the darkness grows around us, grace can shine in the humble heart and lead it to safety. I would say the operating word for us should be humility. Grace cannot penetrate the heart of the proud, but inhabits the heart of the penitent.

 

[dominicsavio]

peace be with you!

i do not seek to turn this into a debate about Scott Hahn, but to say he claims Adam sinned first is incorrect. if you read his book Hail, Holy Queen, you will see clearly that he affirms with the Fathers and Doctors of the Church that Mary is the New Eve. this belief requires that one believe that Eve is the one who sinned first because it says that Eve fell through disobedience and sinned and Mary, through her obediece brought the Incarnation which brings our redemption in the end. what he does claim, is that Adam was standing right there with Eve and did nothing as she was tempted and fell into sin. he does not say Adam committed the original sin though. but clearly, if Adam was there, then you would think he would have attempted to keep Eve from falling instead of watching the events unfold. if Hahn is dangerous, then so are all the people who freely endorse his works such as , like Archbishop Chaput, Fr. Benedict Groeschel, Bishop Bruskewitz, Cardinal Justin Rigali, Mother Angelica, etc. i think that it would be a great mistake to say all these great and holy teachers of our Faith are wrong about him.

 

[Joysong]

Tru:

Why study convert-theology, when you could be investigating the inspired writings of our doctors?

I agree with this wholeheartedly. If our minds are grappling constantly with doubts, it may be due to eating lots of junk food rather than foods that quench and nourish our spirits. :banghead:

Since I could not find a spiritual director in my early days of coming to Christ, I could not trust any writings but the works of our saints and doctors, and the whole of my reading was confined to these solid teachings. One great thing about the saints is that they all say the same thing! — and they all knew the Lord!

I was blessed to have access to the Chancery lending library where so many of these were available to me. Today many of the classics are on-line and freely available to anyone who is interested. Whenever a saint mentioned they had found help in another book, I would buy that book as well. I’m thinking of St. Francis deSales who daily read from a book called “Spiritual Combat” by Dom Scupoli. I figured if it made him a saint, it must be good. BTW, his Introduction to a Devout Life is one of the best classics on the market today for the lay person aspiring to a close walk with God.

The proof is in the pudding, so to speak, for being constantly in the presence of these writings, I found a sweetness and devotion that helped me to grow in my faith and love for Jesus. I never ventured into skeptical works or heavy theological treatises for a long time, and my mind was spared the confusions that we sometimes see degenerating in these forum discussions. Unless we balance these with solid books in the meanwhile, we are certain to maintain doubts, for there are far too many opinions out there that stand ready to muddy our waters.

Carole

 

[Mijoy2]

tru_dvotion:

." So here is my question? Why study convert-theology, when you could be investigating the inspired writings of our doctors?

Question. You said inspired. We are to believe the writings of the Doctors of the church to be “inspired”? Which writings and which Doctors? This, I did not know. Can you direct me to some material? If you did in fact mean inspired, when did the inspiration end? At what point in time? Or is there still potential for inspired writings?

Lots of quesions, sorry.

This is something I should investigate more. I have read Augustine’s Confessions, but I am not sure that went deep into Doctrine as much as it was an autobiography.

I’ve also read “The Story of a Soul” which prompted the reading of “The Imitiation of Christ”. Both books were inspiring in seeing how deep ones faith can be. Of course the flip side of this is seeing just how far I have to go. Although I don’t think these books are what you are refering to.

tru_dvotion:

But in the final analysis I have to agree with Carol, that even if by our natures we are inclined to investigate from an intellectual vantage point, we have to remember to walk with filial humility. No matter how thick the darkness grows around us, grace can shine in the humble heart and lead it to safety. I would say the operating word for us should be humility. Grace cannot penetrate the heart of the proud, but inhabits the heart of the penitent.

This is beautiful Tru. Although that little devil on my shoulder immediately has something to say regarding this. Now please try to understand that I don’t necassarily subscribe to this. I just toss it out in the context of this discussion.

Investigation implies an intellectual pursuit. How do we discern between Grace (in this case the gift of faith)and self-convincing in absence of the facts. Or self-brainwashing.

 

[Mijoy2]

Joysong:

I agree with this wholeheartedly. If our minds are grappling constantly with doubts, it may be due to eating lots of junk food rather than foods that quench and nourish our spirits. :banghead:

Since I could not find a spiritual director in my early days of coming to Christ, I could not trust any writings but the works of our saints and doctors, and the whole of my reading was confined to these solid teachings. One great thing about the saints is that they all say the same thing! — and they all knew the Lord!

I was blessed to have access to the Chancery lending library where so many of these were available to me. Today many of the classics are on-line and freely available to anyone who is interested. Whenever a saint mentioned they had found help in another book, I would buy that book as well. I’m thinking of St. Francis deSales who daily read from a book called “Spiritual Combat” by Dom Scupoli. I figured if it made him a saint, it must be good. BTW, his Introduction to a Devout Life is one of the best classics on the market today for the lay person aspiring to a close walk with God.

The proof is in the pudding, so to speak, for being constantly in the presence of these writings, I found a sweetness and devotion that helped me to grow in my faith and love for Jesus. I never ventured into skeptical works or heavy theological treatises for a long time, and my mind was spared the confusions that we sometimes see degenerating in these forum discussions. Unless we balance these with solid books in the meanwhile, we are certain to maintain doubts, for there are far too many opinions out there that stand ready to muddy our waters.

Carole

I should have read this post first. You answered some of the questions I posed to Tru.

I think I will search out the Introduction to a Devout Life . This is not the first time it has been suggested to me. Thank you.

Your last paragraph has a great deal to say. Excuse me while I read it again, and again…lol Thanks Carole.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Mike, I am happy Carole answered your questions. I should not even have posted. She does not need assistance; furthermore she is far more gentle and careful in how she delivers what she has to say than I could ever be. No wonder I was thought to be a man.

About that inspired writings comment: Ah, that was loosely applied, no way was I putting them on the same level with Holy Scriptures. Yet I must say, some of those writings were inspired by the same Holy Spirit. As I am sure you are, when you reach out to someone and provide exactly what that person needs. Was it you or was it God working through you? We have a rich storehouse of wisdom Mike, approved by the Magisterium (not just by EWTN)

Here is one link
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/ncd02777.htm

They have not provided a direct link to every work, but all the works are listed, so then you can do a search for the particular work separately.

This is by no means a complete list of good reading material. But when one considers the proof of the pudding is in the eating, I personally would not endorse any theological work published without that good old imprimatur.

 

[Annunciata]

dominicsavio:

peace be with you!

…if Hahn is dangerous, then so are all the people who freely endorse his works such as , like Archbishop Chaput, Fr. Benedict Groeschel, Bishop Bruskewitz, Cardinal Justin Rigali, Mother Angelica, etc. i think that it would be a great mistake to say all these great and holy teachers of our Faith are wrong about him.

Well said, Dominic:thumbsup: I think it’s very important to read both…the writings of the Church Fathers and the Doctor’s…Therese, Theresa of Avila, Augustine, Aquinas to name a few… Annunciata

 

[Joysong]

Dear Mike,

I think you might get a nice picture when you read Webster’s definition of inspire: 1 a : to influence, move, or guide by divine or supernatural inspiration b : to exert an animating, enlivening, or exalting influence on.

If we are reading something that does not breathe within us in the manner of the above definition, it may be planted in our heads for later use some day, but it leaves us high and dry, without the explicit purpose of moving, animating, guiding, loving. When Our Divine Shepherd speaks, writes David in the psalms, our hearts melt. Or as the disciples experienced in the Emmaus account, their hearts burned within them as He spoke.

Ask the Lord to lead you to only those inspired works which deepen and enkindle love for Him, and provide steadfastness in avoiding anything that might offend this Divine Guest who indwells you. Unless they nourish your spirit, they may only serve to puff up the mind, although sometimes good seeds may be planted that will be useful some day. You know interiorly and instinctively when what you read is uplifting or a total drain on you, or is something that instigates doubt and controversy.

If we combine our devotional reading, prayerfully, along with solid teachings such as found in the CCC and Scripture, I fail to see how a person would not come to the summit of true and living faith very quickly.

One final scripture you may find helpful is from Isaiah 55:10, “For just as from the heavens the rain and snow come down and do not return there till they have watered the earth, making it fertile and fruitful**,** giving seed to him who sows and bread to him who eats, so shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to me void, but shall do My will, achieving the end for which I sent it.”

We should fully expect to find refreshing water whenever we come to prayerful reading. If the book does not do this, why exert effort if we are not able to eat?

P. S. Happy Feast Day, all you saints who are reading!

Carole

 

[Mijoy2]

tru_dvotion:

furthermore she is far more gentle and careful in how she delivers what she has to say than I could ever be. No wonder I was thought to be a man.

I think your delivery is wonderful Tru.
It takes many ingrediants to make a delicious soup.

tru_dvotion:
About that inspired writings comment: Ah, that was loosely applied, no way was I putting them on the same level with Holy Scriptures.

Okay, I’ll let it go this time but nest time, watch out.

tru_dvotion:
Yet I must say, some of those writings were inspired by the same Holy Spirit. As I am sure you are, when you reach out to someone and provide exactly what that person needs. Was it you or was it God working through you? We have a rich storehouse of wisdom Mike, approved by the Magisterium (not just by EWTN)

Here is one link
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/ncd02777.htm

They have not provided a direct link to every work, but all the works are listed, so then you can do a search for the particular work separately.

This is by no means a complete list of good reading material. But when one considers the proof of the pudding is in the eating, I personally would not endorse any theological work published without that good old imprimatur.

You have me on a new mission. I’ve also decided to take the Bible on my daily 50 minute to and from work commute (train) and read it cover to cover. Something I have yet to do. I’ve read countless books but have neglected THE book thus far.

I thank you all for your loving support and help. After a number of my posts I expected to get blasted, that never happened. Everyone came back to me with encouragnment and answers.

all!