?? for our "faith alone" brothers and sisters

[allisonP]

Maria,

It has been my experiance that loving is a choice.
I have never meant to imply on here that it was not.
I do think that sometimes it is easier to love then at other times.
Loving someone who has deeply hurt you is not easy to do.
Yet because Christ loved us enough to save us, we will love or truly try to.
It is the love of God in those that his spirit resides in that compells us to love, or tells us that we must try to love, even our enemies.
Allison

MariaG:

What I have found is that most believe when a person is following Christ, love, the works, *naturally *flows from those who love Christ. While most Catholics tend to feel that the love, the works, is a conscious choice to accept the grace made available to accomplish the job.

The problem I have found with the first attitude is when a job comes up that you really don’t want to do, you feel like there is something wrong with you, maybe that you are backsliding or something just because you don’t “naturally” want to do the job that you know the Holy Spirit has laid on your heart.

Try asking if they believe a person must “walk the walk” after they are saved.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

MariaG:

What I have found is that most believe when a person is following Christ, love, the works, *naturally *flows from those who love Christ. While most Catholics tend to feel that the love, the works, is a conscious choice to accept the grace made available to accomplish the job.

The problem I have found with the first attitude is when a job comes up that you really don’t want to do, you feel like there is something wrong with you, maybe that you are backsliding or something just because you don’t “naturally” want to do the job that you know the Holy Spirit has laid on your heart.

Try asking if they believe a person must “walk the walk” after they are saved.

God Bless,
Maria

It doesn’t seem to be a matter of that they “must” walk the walk but rather that they simply will, by default, walk the walk.

I can understand those who reject the idea of free will believing this, but it’s completely inconsistent for that who believe that we retain our free will after being saved

Perhaps the question should be after we are saved is walking the walking a matter of the will?.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[MariaG]

Catholic4aReasn:

It doesn’t seem to be a matter of that they “must” walk the walk but rather that they simply will, by default, walk the walk.

I can understand those who reject the idea of free will believing this, but it’s completely inconsistent for that who believe that we retain our free will after being saved

Perhaps the question should be after we are saved is walking the walking a matter of the will?.

In Christ,
Nancy

I like that. I have been in a discussion with a person who used to be Baptist but now acknowledges free will. She is an interesting mix and theologically, the mix is a wonder to see:whacky: .

I’ll try those words next time. She is easier to talk to than those who do not believe in free will, (more points of commonality), but she still has much of the baptist OSAS theology with her.

I will be interested in her response. In the Nazarene Church I used attend, I can say my pastor would have said yes, a person must walk the walk, and walking was a matter of will. (Putting the desires of flesh aside, etc.)

In the evangelical, I think they would not see it as a matter of will. More of, “if I keep my relationship with God right, it will just happen.” Keeping the relationship with God being morning devotions, evening devotions and regular Bible reading. I guess the follow up question would be “Do you have to consciously choose to get up and do the devotions. What do you do when you don’t want to. Is doing your devotions a matter of will?”

I can see where the Akin article would be helpful in breaking apart the faith hope and charity of the Catholic postition. I had never read the Akin article before. I printed it out and bookmarked it for future references. Thanks.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

MariaG:

In the evangelical, I think they would not see it as a matter of will. More of, “if I keep my relationship with God right, it will just happen.” devotions a matter of will?"

I don’t think they believe there is any “keeping” to be done on their part. Once they are saved they are simply kept.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[allisonP]

Boy I am confused on what you believe!

Here is what I believe as a Christian and not a member of a denomination(per say).
I think that(well I am in the process of reevaluating my beliefs which is why I am on here) but what I have believed in my 24 years as a christian is that.
Christ died for the forgivness of my sins.
That I must love my brothers and sisters and show kindness to my enemies not to be saved any more than I already am but to show christ to others.
As a christian I want to love and help and give.
For the times I dont really “feel” like it, maybe I don’t like the way someone has treated me or whatever I still have to put those feelings aside and do what is right.
I THINK the difference I am hearing in our beliefs is that Catholics love and give because they believe there salvation is dependant on it(maybe it is, I dont know yet) and what I have believed is that my salvation is assured and that because of the sacrafice that was given so that I could be saved that I will sacrafice my self (my wants or needs or whatever) for others.
Not so I can go to heaven but to show others the way through christ working in me.

 

[jim1130]

herry:

Dear Folks,

I hope I can help. Sola Scripture/ Sola Fide is the oldest teaching among Christianity. The Apostles taught it. And even most of the church fathers called saints in the Catholic Church, and in particular the Ante-Nicene Fathers, taught sola fide. If you will bear with my bold Hypothesis I will now explain.

“For by grace ye are saved by faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast” Ephesians 2:8-9

“For we are saved by hope…” Romans 8:24

Even King David got a taste of this grace.

“Bless the Lord, O my soul, All that is within me, bless His holy name…He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as high as heaven is above the earth, so great is his mercy to them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgression from us. Like as a father pitieth His children, so also the Lord pitieth them theat fear him” Psalm 103:1, 10-13

This is the joy and shock you feel in your heart when you understand that salvation is of the Lord, and not of ourselves. God credits righteousness apart from works.

“Therefore we conclude that man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” Romans 3:28

Works are merely the fruit of being in a relationship with Christ. Sola Fide is not a new teaching, it originated as we learned God’s plan for mankind’s salvation as it unfolded throughout History. Compare this last statement which I derived from my study of the Bible with the writings of a man recognized as a saint by the Catholic Church.

“An we too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen” --1st Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Ch. XXXII, Ant-Nicene Fathers p. 13

Salvation and works are seperate. When we experience God’s grace, we can’t help but love him. Think about it like marriage. I would do something to make my wife happy. Not to gain her love, but because I already love her.

What about when we get saved? Are all our sins past present and future forgiven? “For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified…This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, Saith the Lord…I will put my law into thier hearts, and in their minds I will write them. And thier sins and iniquities I will remember no more” Heb. 10:14, 16, 17

Paul agrees: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh (no man could keep the law) God, sending His own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the felsh. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit” Romans 8:1-4

Even if we sin, what do we do? “We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous…” 1 John 2:1 So “I prayed unto the Lord my God and made my confession…” Daniel 9:4 “…I said, I will confess my transgression unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin” Psalm 32:5

All our sins were paid for 2000 years ago. “Without the shedding of blood their is no remission…” Heb 9:22 It is only by faith in God’s grace that we can ever hope to gain salvation or forgiveness.

“Nor yet that he should offer himself often…For then he must have often suffered since the foundation of the world…And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this is the judgement, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” Hebrews 9:25, 26, 27, 28

I hope this helps you understand why protestants beleive sola fide.

Peace in Christ alone,

-Herry

Sorry, but I am not buying this stance because you “accept” this premise since it fits your ideology, but then turn around and talk about how Jesus was misrepresented when he said “This is my body; this is my blood” or when he breathed on the Apostles to give them the authority to forgive sins or when he changed Simon’s name to Peter (as God changed Abram’s name to Abraham) and made him the Rock on which the Church was built. You pick and choose without understanding. Besides, did Jesus not speak of faith, hope, and love and then state that the greatest of these was love? Why didn’t Jesus say “faith” was the greatest? I suppose Jesus was misinterpreted, too.

 

[LittleDeb]

allisonP:

Boy I am confused on what you believe!

Here is what I believe as a Christian and not a member of a denomination(per say).
I think that(well I am in the process of reevaluating my beliefs which is why I am on here) but what I have believed in my 24 years as a christian is that.
Christ died for the forgivness of my sins.
That I must love my brothers and sisters and show kindness to my enemies not to be saved any more than I already am but to show christ to others.
As a christian I want to love and help and give.
For the times I dont really “feel” like it, maybe I don’t like the way someone has treated me or whatever I still have to put those feelings aside and do what is right.
I THINK the difference I am hearing in our beliefs is that Catholics love and give because they believe there salvation is dependant on it(maybe it is, I dont know yet) and what I have believed is that my salvation is assured and that because of the sacrafice that was given so that I could be saved that I will sacrafice my self (my wants or needs or whatever) for others.
Not so I can go to heaven but to show others the way through christ working in me.

Don’t worry, you’re on a good path. My husband believed almost these same things as a “non-denominational” too. Of course it was “love” that brought him home to The Church.

Salvation is a process for us, not an event. Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was a one-time sacrifice. We are not Jesus even though we are part of His body.

He (my hubby) couldn’t figure out the “love” part either, for the same reason. (ie. when people aren’t so lovable.) I explained that faith alone doesn’t bring love. Love is defined by many Protestants as a feeling that can defined. You are right that you define it as a choice.

The love a Catholic will talk about is agape love. (That might be new term for you I don’t know). As stated before faith does not save us, grace does. It is because of the love God has for us that he bestows grace. Faith and works are the cooperation with that grace.

Love does NOT flow naturally from faith. If that were so then all the “saved” would have perfect, loving relationships with their families and friends. Love is a decision, therefore actually more of a “work.”

Also, when you read Romans please make sure you understand the difference between “works of the law” and “works of righteousness.” Huge difference between them. herry has shown he has obviously no idea what the Bible means since he uses them interchangeably to suit his personal interpretation. I can define those terms in another thread if you would like.

You are in my prayers tonight.

 

[But_for_Grace]

jim1130:

Sorry, but I am not buying this stance because you “accept” this premise since it fits your ideology, but then turn around and talk about how Jesus was misrepresented when he said “This is my body; this is my blood” or when he breathed on the Apostles to give them the authority to forgive sins or when he changed Simon’s name to Peter (as God changed Abram’s name to Abraham) and made him the Rock on which the Church was built. You pick and choose without understanding. Besides, did Jesus not speak of faith, hope, and love and then state that the greatest of these was love? Why didn’t Jesus say “faith” was the greatest? I suppose Jesus was misinterpreted, too.

Actually that was Paul in his frist letter to the Corinthians

1Co 13:13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.

“Faith alone” is contrary to what Christ himself preached, that is why the Catholic Church, nor any christian who wishes to maintain fedility to the Gospel, rejects it. Jesus said…

Luk 6:46 And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?

…and…

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

You can call Christ your Lord and savior all you want and still end up in hell as a heretic. The only thing that will save you is obedience to the Gospel message. Because we have free will there is no assurance of salvation, unless we continue to obey Christ we can choose to sin and to remain unrepentant even unto our death. That is part of the problem with these protestant theories, they have to have conditional statements to make them work (as in “well he wasn’t really saved” for a believe who backslides).

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

allisonP:

Boy I am confused on what you believe!

Here is what I believe as a Christian and not a member of a denomination(per say).
I think that(well I am in the process of reevaluating my beliefs which is why I am on here) but what I have believed in my 24 years as a christian is that.
Christ died for the forgivness of my sins.
That I must love my brothers and sisters and show kindness to my enemies not to be saved any more than I already am but to show christ to others.
As a christian I want to love and help and give.
For the times I dont really “feel” like it, maybe I don’t like the way someone has treated me or whatever I still have to put those feelings aside and do what is right.
I THINK the difference I am hearing in our beliefs is that Catholics love and give because they believe there salvation is dependant on it(maybe it is, I dont know yet) and what I have believed is that my salvation is assured and that because of the sacrafice that was given so that I could be saved that I will sacrafice my self (my wants or needs or whatever) for others.
Not so I can go to heaven but to show others the way through christ working in me.

God says in his word that, we once we are saved, we must “remain in Christ” and “persevere to the end”. How do you we remain in Christ and in what are we to persevere?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[herry]

allisonP:

Boy I am confused on what you believe!

Here is what I believe as a Christian and not a member of a denomination(per say).
I think that(well I am in the process of reevaluating my beliefs which is why I am on here) but what I have believed in my 24 years as a christian is that.
Christ died for the forgivness of my sins.
That I must love my brothers and sisters and show kindness to my enemies not to be saved any more than I already am but to show christ to others.
As a christian I want to love and help and give.
For the times I dont really “feel” like it, maybe I don’t like the way someone has treated me or whatever I still have to put those feelings aside and do what is right.
I THINK the difference I am hearing in our beliefs is that Catholics love and give because they believe there salvation is dependant on it(maybe it is, I dont know yet) and what I have believed is that my salvation is assured and that because of the sacrafice that was given so that I could be saved that I will sacrafice my self (my wants or needs or whatever) for others.
Not so I can go to heaven but to show others the way through christ working in me.

Dear AllisonP,

This is pretty good. The important thing to remember is that we cannot justify ourselves. On the day of Judgement, Jesus is not going to ask us how much money we gave, or whatever. But if we placed out trust for salvation in Him. Assurance comes only when we stop looking to ourselves, and look to Christ. “So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, and unto them who look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” Heb. 9:28

The relationship between Justification and good works… they have no relation to each other. We are saved, and justified by faith before we do any good works (read Romans 3:19-24). But as James and John tell us, Abiding in Christ, doing His commandments, and loving one another are the fruits that we are in Christ.

Peace in Christ alone,

-Herry

 

[herry]

jim1130:

Sorry, but I am not buying this stance because you “accept” this premise since it fits your ideology, but then turn around and talk about how Jesus was misrepresented when he said “This is my body; this is my blood” or when he breathed on the Apostles to give them the authority to forgive sins or when he changed Simon’s name to Peter (as God changed Abram’s name to Abraham) and made him the Rock on which the Church was built. You pick and choose without understanding. Besides, did Jesus not speak of faith, hope, and love and then state that the greatest of these was love? Why didn’t Jesus say “faith” was the greatest? I suppose Jesus was misinterpreted, too.

Dear Jim1130,

There is no need to be harsh. I don’t understand exactly what you are implying here. Correct me if I am wrong, are you saying that my beleif on justification sounds good, but you do not accept it because of what else I beleive about things like the Eucharist, and Papacl supremacy?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

herry:

The relationship between Justification and good works… they have no relation to each other.

Sure they do:

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

We are saved, and justified by faith before we do any good works (read Romans 3:19-24).

You’ve made a very common mistake here herry. James and Paul use the same word “works” to mean completely different things.

In Romans3:19-24 Paul is speaking specifically and only of the works of the Mosaic law. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the works that justify along with faith (obedience to and love of God; love of neighbor).

James was not using “works” to refer to the Mosaic Law. Paul was. It’s absolutely impossible to simply use the word “works” as though there is one and only one definition, apply it to both Romans and James, and come out with a correct understanding.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[jim1130]

herry:

Dear Jim1130,

There is no need to be harsh. I don’t understand exactly what you are implying here. Correct me if I am wrong, are you saying that my beleif on justification sounds good, but you do not accept it because of what else I beleive about things like the Eucharist, and Papacl supremacy?

Sorry, did not meant to sound harsh so please accept my sincerest apology for writing insenstively. Living in Oklahoma, where Catholics are 10% of the population, you get a little beaten up with the Sola Scriptura/Sola Fide arguments of the non-Catholics so I am overly sensitive when I interpret people picking and choosing (hence the influx of non-denominational churches these days with the pastors acting as pope).

The Bible is not self-interpreting. In a simplistic comparison, if the US Constitution is straight forward then why do we need a Supreme Court to interpret it? After all, the US Constitution is a fraction of the pages of the Bible.

No, Jesus left us the Church and gave authority to teach to the Apostles. We are not really to interpret it ourselves. A case in point is the number of Bible verses hurled by disagreeing parties. Right there, that should prove that the Bible is NOT self intepreting. I am not someone who has Bible verses committed to memory because it is easy to take one verse and twist it like spaghetti around a fork. More must be taken into consideration.

I have heard people speak of the Bereans as true Sola Scriptura advocates, but the reality is that they rejected the scripture and believed the oral tradition of the Apostles. The Thessolonians were the true Sola Scriptura advocates because they did not deviate from what was written in the early scriptures.

Jesus set-up the Church, through Peter, to interpret his teachings (remember, there was no Bible at all and Jesus never instructed his Apostles to document his misison, except for John and Revelation). For 2,000 years, the Catholic Church, in spite of goof-ups along the way, has stayed the course. Not until the Reformation when people became their own interpreters of what the Bible professed did the splintering of Christianity begin.

The Catholic Church uses the Bible, sacred Tradition (this is spoken of frequently in the NT), and the Sacraments. The Bible did not come along for 4 more centuries. How did people learn of the NT for almost 400 years? Through oral tradition. And the oral Tradition originated fromthe Apostolic Succession of the Catholic Chuch.

We hear faith=salvation. Wish it could be so simple. How do you really know if you have been saved? You FEEL it? Does this mean you can never lose it once you have professed it? No back-sliding? No wonder people flock to “Accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and you will be saved” denominations. They sell guarantees. We have a moral assurance of salvation, but no guarantee.

Many people are good at memorizing verses and throwing them around. As a Catholic, we can become intimidated with such oration because we, too, believe in the Bible. We just believe that it is a component of our understanding not the entire basis of our faith because interpreting it incorrectly can be dangerous.

Does this make sense?

 

[jim1130]

Catholic4aReasn:

Sure they do:

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

You’ve made a very common mistake here herry. James and Paul use the same word “works” to mean completely different things.

In Romans3:19-24 Paul is speaking specifically and only of the works of the Mosaic law. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the works that justify along with faith (obedience to and love of God; love of neighbor).

James was not using “works” to refer to the Mosaic Law. Paul was. It’s absolutely impossible to simply use the word “works” as though there is one and only one definition, apply it to both Romans and James, and come out with a correct understanding.

In Christ,
Nancy

And wasn’t Martin Luther threatened by James because it threatened his Sola Fide theory? I once heard that Martin Luther referred to James as the “epistle of straw” and tried to remove it from the NT. Is this accurate?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

jim1130:

And wasn’t Martin Luther threatened by James because it threatened his Sola Fide theory? I once heard that Martin Luther referred to James as the “epistle of straw” and tried to remove it from the NT. Is this accurate?

Yes, that’s right. Luther also wanted to exclude Revelation.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[RCCDefender]

Catholic4aReasn:

Yes, that’s right. Luther also wanted to exclude Revelation.

In Christ,
Nancy

James, Revelation, Hebrews, and 2 Peter. Luther believed these were added in error.

Incidentally, Luther printed his own translation, altering it substantially to suit his own views, in parts between 1523 and 1534. He based his evaluation of th New Testament entirely on Paul, putting even the Gospels in second place. But then he strongly disparaged Hebrews, and he deleted or added things whenever he thought he knew better than Paul. He put the word only, for instance, after the phrase “we are justified by faith”, which makes it into a completely new doctrine.

 

[jim1130]

RCCDefender:

James, Revelation, Hebrews, and 2 Peter. Luther believed these were added in error.

Incidentally, Luther printed his own translation, altering it substantially to suit his own views, in parts between 1523 and 1534. He based his evaluation of th New Testament entirely on Paul, putting even the Gospels in second place. But then he strongly disparaged Hebrews, and he deleted or added things whenever he thought he knew better than Paul. He put the word only, for instance, after the phrase “we are justified by faith”, which makes it into a completely new doctrine.

Does this mean that Luther saw himself as infallible and decided to become his own Pope? I always thought that Luther was not altgoether bad, that he really wa snot out to begin a new religious movement, but that he was trying to awaken the Catholic Church and the Papcy from a pious slumber. Instead, 75 years after Luther, the proliferation of non-Catholic religions really took hold. I guess I am amazed that most of the new religions have an English and/or American slant as if the Brits and Yanks know better. Of course, this means that it is the American-form of Baptists, for example, that are out prostelytizing, right?

 

[reen12]

quote: Catholic4aReason

If we are saved by faith alone is love of God and neighbor unnecessary for salvation?

Here’s a short answer to your question, from another
thread:

quote: reen12

For a sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fides Christian,
the emphasis is placed on the fact that Christ is our
justification, salvation and righteousness.

That nothing a man/woman can do will “effect” their
salvation: Christ has wrought our salvation.

And, when “faith” is spoken of, in these communities,
it connotes “lively faith” = obedience to Christ’s
commands.

Hope this helps to clarify the “faith alone” position.

faith= “lively faith”=obedience to the commands of Christ

reen12

 

[Matthew7vrs7]

The fact of the matter is that when we are “saved”, the holy Spirit then enters us producing a “life change”. One that not only is felt by the Christian receiving the gift of the Spirit, but it is also visible to the outside world - to those who have known us before we accepted Jesus as our Savior. To accept Christ produces love, desire to help, a painful mourning for the lost, a peace and hope eternal. If one says they have accepted Christ, you WILL see this fruit of the Spirit without fail. Let me ask you this Catholic4areason - interperet the meaning of this:

Luke 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us. 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong. 42 Then he said to Jesus, ?Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.? 43 And Jesus said to him, Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (sorry this happens to be in my singature as well…not meant to be a double print) .

Is the criminal saved? Jesus tells him he is. Has he done any works, or even been baptized? Clearly not. But at his revelation of and understanding that Jesus was Christ, because he spoke with his mouth and believed in his heart, he was saved as Paul explained to the Romans. (Romans 10:9-11).

Clearly, faith in Christ must produce works as a byproduct of having Christ within you. Of course we all fight the flesh daily because we are of this earth, but our salvation is only dependant of the fact that we believe - everything else, works, obedience, joy, love, peace, strength, loss of pride, hatred of sin (but not the sinner) all of these are produced by Spirit. The very reason we cannot boast of our works as they are not our works but those of Jesus living in us. The old covenant said that works are what saved you from damnation, by strictly walking with God, and upholding traditions - many, many many traditions - Jesus explained that God hated mans traditions, because they produce pride in self, being the root of all evil. That is the very reason God sent His Son, our Lord and Master, so that we might actually be saved from ourselves - since “not one man is without sin, no not one” making us, because we are humans, unworthy becuase we cannot of our own accord live up to God’s standards and the Torah.

Please forgive my lengthy post.