Forgiveness

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Tietjen

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When a person forgives another person of a wrong done to them, what is expected? Allow me to give an example of what I am asking. Say that Alex and Ricky are brothers. Both are teenagers living in the same house. Ricky enters Alex’s room when Alex is out of the house and he steals $100. He then goes to the store and spends the money. Now say that Alex discovers his brother’s sin and confronts him with it. Ricky then confesses to the sin and apologizes for his actions. Alex says that he forgives his brother. Is that then the end of it?

Here is a more personal example that I now find myself in. I am a parent and a teenage child embarrasses me and the rest of the family in a restaurant. He throws a tantrum and begins yelling. When told to stop it he begins to use profanity, stands up and tries to leave the restaurant. I, as the parent, I take hold of his hand and proceed to walk with him to the cashier to pay for the meal. The whole way he is yelling and attempting to get away. After the meal is paid for, I take him to the car and ensure that he remains inside by placing myself outside the car door, thus allowing the rest of the family to finish their meal in peace and ensuring the teenager does not flee. Later that day I attempt to talk with him calmly and in private about the situation and I am met with more profanity and yelling. I impose a punishment (his friend from out of town who had been planning to visit this Easter break will not be coming). That evening I get a handwritten note from the teen telling me that I am being unfair and reminding me that this is Lent and “All good Catholics are supposed to be forgiving past actions against them.” I am told that I am not being a good Catholic because I will not forgive him and let his friend come. He insinuates that I am being a hypocrite because at every Mass I say the Our Father prayer ("…forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us…"). I responded to his note with a note in order to avoid another verbal outburst or tantrum and attempt to explain that I did forgive him however; it was my obligation as a parent to discipline his inappropriate behavior. It needs to be said also, that he has never apologized nor admitted that what he did was wrong. Yet even if he did apologize, I feel a punishment is warranted to help ensure that a reoccurrence will not happen. He has suggested that another punishment be found and that I allow his friend to come and visit. If I yield my position, what is to stop him from using this situation to get out of another similar situation where discipline might be called for? In addition, my wife has now come to his defense and has said that I am wrong so I am alone on this issue and have to defend myself on all fronts. Please what are your thoughts?
 
Oh boy.

As far as the “forgiveness” issue goes, your son/teen is tossing you a red herring of the first water. Stand your ground as far as consequences go. He needs to have the whole book thrown at him.

You can (and probably should) forgive him his behavior, but forgiveness is not synonymous with the lifting of parental consequences.

Forgiveness is a function (among other things) of allowing us to not indulge in vengeance. You are not trying to take revenge on this teen. You are attempting to fulfill your primary responsibility as a parents, which is to teach this person how to act properly.

On another note, you and your wife need to find a way to show a united front on this. Kids can exploit differences in parenting ruthlessly to their own advantage, as I suspect this teen already is/has.

If I might presume to offer a suggestion: during those times my wife and I disagree, (and it is usually her disagreeing with me) we agree to discuss those in our bedroom without kids present. If she still insists I am wrong, either I have to change my tune (which you should NOT do here), or she has to bite the bullet and keep quiet.

Good luck. I’ll be praying for you.

Oh, one more thing. I’ve never had to do this, but my own kids (oldest is 14) know that they are not too old for me to lay them across my lap and administer a serious spanking if they lose control. Just this knowledge makes them think twice before engaging in any outrageous behavior.
 
The teen’s suggestion that you are being hypocritical in not applying the teachings of the Our Father is also a red herring, and I submit, a further violation (on his part) of the 4th Commandment. He has (especially given his behavior) no right at all in lecturing you on moral conduct.

If we took that teaching to its logical end (as described by your teen), there would be no consequences for anything, and offenders of every stripe could run wild with impunity.

No. I’ll say it again. Stand your ground. Make this teen know that you are the parent, not him.
 
You did right mom. There is a big difference between forgiveness and accountability (or penance). You forgave him but he still has to be accountable for his actions.

I mean this next part with love:

Have you thought about having this son evaluated for manic depression?

Where is the dad in all of this?
Bottom line, you did right…now stand your ground.

God Bless you … we will be praying for you.
 
In addition,** my wife** has now come to his defense and has said that I am wrong so I am alone on this issue and have to defend myself on all fronts. Please what are your thoughts?
dhgray, I think it is the dad that posted this topic.
 
I agree with the above posts, stand your ground on the punishment. However, I think this may also also be a good opportunity to talk to your teen about the Catholic understanding of forgiveness through the sacrament of reconciliation, how purgatory relates to forgiveness and penance.
 
One more thing:
Ricky enters Alex’s room when Alex is out of the house and he steals $100. He then goes to the store and spends the money. Now say that Alex discovers his brother’s sin and confronts him with it. Ricky then confesses to the sin and apologizes for his actions. Alex says that he forgives his brother. Is that then the end of it?
That is NOT the end of it. Apologies consist of three components:

1)An act of contrition (SAYING “I’m sorry”)
2)A true commitment to not committing that sin again, and
3)Repairing whatever damage took place. In the money case, this means paying it back, or else the apology is meaningless.

In the case of the restaurant, it means submitting to your punishment humbly and completely.
 
If you have a teenager who behaves this way in public, you have waaayy more than a theological problem. If your wife thinks you are too harsh, then SHE has a problem and is probably a big part of the problem. Letting this kid get away with this affront by “forgiving” his behavior will only escalate the problem. Get thee to good Christian family counseling ASAP.
 
My oldest is only two and a half, so I can’t speak from experience, but I anticipate that I will still impose punishments after forgiving my children’s misbehavior. Actions have consequences weather you are forgiven or not. After all, Jesus always forgives us when we go to confession, but we still have to do penance.
I would stand my ground on the punishment too. If your kid doesn’t like the punishments you come up with, maybe he will think twice before misbehaving next time. In fact, I would be inclined to increase the punishment to teach him not to second guess your punishments. Well, good luck!
 
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cwby-flyer:
I agree with the above posts, stand your ground on the punishment. However, I think this may also also be a good opportunity to talk to your teen about the Catholic understanding of forgiveness through the sacrament of reconciliation, how purgatory relates to forgiveness and penance.
I would love to sit down and have a civil and thoughtful discussion with my children concerning the Catholic Church and her beliefs and practices. However, without going to a long drawn out explanation, it isn’t possible. I have three teenage sons. Two absolutely refuse to hear anything pro-Catholic and one has embarrassed the Church. The two older ones 18 and 16 are Protestant and there mom, my wife, is an unpracticing Catholic. I require that my boys accompany me to Mass each week and MUCH resentment and hate over that is experienced by me, yet I hope that someday something will click inside of them and they will start to ask legitimate questions with the intention of truly learning. Until that happens, I will continue to pray for them and encourage my youngest son, who will be confirmed after Easter.🙂

Thank you everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut, advice and prayers. I REALLY needed to hear that. Catholic Answers and it’s message boards are a God send and I thank God everyday that I can come here and read what other Catholics are going through and how they are overcoming their situations.
It was suggested that my question and the situation depicted are a far greater problem than simply theology. You people are so insightful. Disciplining children has always been a two-front battle. I’m not talking about abusing children. I’m talking about spanking (when they were younger), restrictions, taking away a privilege, etc. when a child misbehaves. First, I get it from the child, and then I get it from my wife. She believes (God bless her) that peace must be maintained at all costs regardless of the actions of the children. She believes soley in attempting to reason with the children without the use of stifling them with a punishment (that would make them angry and thereby cause unhappiness). If a child is unhappy, she is unhappy. Moreover, whoever or whatever made the child unhappy will be dealt with severely. I know that this makes me sound pathetic but I truly love my wife and kids and find myself constantly torn between what I know to be right and what will keep the peace. We are now both in counseling and it’s my hope (my life hope) that we will work it all out.
Thank you again for confirming to me that I was not wrong in my response.
God bless all of you.
 
She believes (God bless her) that peace must be maintained at all costs regardless of the actions of the children.
This does not bring peace in the long run, as you have discovered. Children actually crave guidance and guidelines. They will never admit to it (because it is an unconscious craving) but it is there nonetheless.
She believes soley in attempting to reason with the children without the use of stifling them with a punishment (that would make them angry and thereby cause unhappiness).
reason alone will not suffice, again as you have discovered. Learning theory (aside from theology) is very clear on that.
We are now both in counseling and it’s my hope (my life hope) that we will work it all out.
Thank heaven!!! Hang in there!!
 
Trust me…lots of experience here(18 foster kids…all teens, an 18 year old, 15yo, and 13yo of my own and 9yo stepkid)…you did the right thing! I would also like to remind you that it is the job of a teenager to manipulate his/her enviorment to see where the limits are(i.e. normal behavior to strech limits). If you don’t set this limit you will be in fear each time you go some where and don’t give in to your childs whims. It is the job of the parents to define the limits. You need to stick to your guns. I would suggest sitting down with said child and explain to him that you have forgiven him but that the punishment stands because you have a responsibility to God to raise him correctly. I usually throw in the whole “I take my responsibilities to God very seriously, and since he entrusted me to raise you and care for you” line to get the point across that I am not doing this to be mean but rather to teach them a valuable life lesson.
The bigger problem as I see it is that your wife and you are not on the same page with this. This is seen by a child as a sign of weakness…divide and conquer if you will…I hope that she did not disagree in front of the kid. If this is a problem, you may need to ask her to please talk to you in private about it in the future as you need to show a united front with teens.

Good luck!!! Lots of prayers for patience are in order here!!!
 
In my opinion, some form of pusnishment is always warranted even if a child says sorry. I’ve witnessed this first hand with my child. Initially, I let my son get away with a “sorry” and gave him very little or no punishment. He quickly learned that “sorry” was the “magic” word. If he calmed down and said sorry everything would be back to “normal” and as a result, he ended up not knowing what sorry actually meant. Lately, I’ve been making sure he gets some form of punishment and it’s been working but I still have a long way to go to reverse all the years in which he learned that sorry almost aways bought his way out of punishment.
 
Hello Tietjen,

Pope John Paul II forgave his attempted assassin three days after the attempt. Pope John Paul II did not ask the Italian government to stop punishing the attempted assassin till twenty years later. Now the attempted assassin was released from punishment in Italy, at the Pope’s request, and transfered to serve his punishment for the murder of a journalist in Turkey.

You can forgive someone in your heart but to let a known murderer loose in the Vatican or the Gettos of Italy, without punishment, is not the responsible thing to do.

Can you imagine what the world would be like if the police let rapists, murderers, thieves go on the sene simply because they “bore no hatred or vengence but only forgiveness”? Punishment is not failure to forgive. Punishment is a good thing. It protects society at large and it protects people from themselves. Who would stop sinning and criminal activity if they were continuously “forgiven” and set free on the spot by police? Forgiveness comes from the heart and has little to do with the responcibility of punishment.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
Boy oh boy…if I had a son or daughter that acted like that, I’d disown him/her on the spot, write him/her out of my life for good, sell all his/her possessions, arrange for my will to exclude him/her, cut the cord and never look back.:tsktsk:
 
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