Former Presbyterians - Freewill

[Corrgc69]

Greetings!

I am in conversation with a Presbyterian who does not believe humans have free will in matters pertaining to God. He states that all mankind is dead in our sins thanks to Adam. Just like Jesus restored Lazarus to life, with no help from Lazarus, Jesus restores our spiritual life with no help from us. Man is unable to choose God or cooperate with God as he does not have free will (Just like Lazarus could not restore himself back to life). I showed him verses where Paul teaches “faith working through love”, working out our salvation with fear and trembling and Paul concerned about being “disqualified”. To no avail, he claims this is merely descriptive of the re-generated spirit and that God is doing the working in spite of man.

Can you point me to verses that describe man as completely dead in his sins and unable to seek God? Also verses to show where Man can seek and “work” with God and is not totally depraved?

Sincerely in Christ,
Rick

 

[HopkinsReb]

Greetings!

I am in conversation with a Presbyterian who does not believe humans have free will in matters pertaining to God. He states that all mankind is dead in our sins thanks to Adam. Just like Jesus restored Lazarus to life, with no help from Lazarus, Jesus restores our spiritual life with no help from us. Man is unable to choose God or cooperate with God as he does not have free will (Just like Lazarus could not restore himself back to life). I showed him verses where Paul teaches “faith working through love”, working out our salvation with fear and trembling and Paul concerned about being “disqualified”. To no avail, he claims this is merely descriptive of the re-generated spirit and that God is doing the working in spite of man.

Can you point me to verses that describe man as completely dead in his sins and unable to seek God? Also verses to show where Man can seek and “work” with God and is not totally depraved?

Sincerely in Christ,
Rick

This should help.

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm

 

[Corrgc69]

Thanks HopkinsReb! I read Jimmy’s article and even brought up some of his points. But the article does not elaborate on my topic in detail. I’d like to know what verses I am going to encounter, and how former Calvinists see those verses now. Also which verses show man does have free will in choosing to believe in God? His claim being we have no choice - we are either predestined to Salvation or eternal damanation.

Rick

This should help.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP

 

[adf417]

His claim being we have no choice - we are either predestined to Salvation or eternal damanation.

This claim would include God creating some to be predestined to eternal damnation and this would be direct contridiction to a loving God. You dont need a bible verse to see this is a fallacy.

Peace!!!

 

[Corrgc69]

Thank you for your response! When I mentioned that the apostle John taught us that God Is Love and that Paul gave us a treatise on love in 1 Cor 13, he countered with what God told Job - who are you to question me? If some are chosen for damnation - it is a mystery belonging to God alone.

Corrgc69:

His claim being we have no choice - we are either predestined to Salvation or eternal damanation.

This claim would include God creating some to be predestined to eternal damnation and this would be direct contridiction to a loving God. You dont need a bible verse to see this is a fallacy.

Peace!!!

Rick

 

[TULIPed]

How does one hold Ephesians 1:4-5 in tension with 2 Peter 3:9? Great discussion to have with a Presby.

It’s getting harder and harder these days to find no-kidding 5 pointers. However, Presbyterians in general, when push comes to shove, would say that when in doubt, credit goes to God - for everything (and especially salvation).

Said another way - a Presbyterian is always asking this question, “Is it possible to give God too much credit?” We think that the less we make it about us, and the more we make it about Christ, the better. Can we take that concept too far?

 

[adf417]

Thank you for your response! When I mentioned that the apostle John taught us that God Is Love and that Paul gave us a treatise on love in 1 Cor 13, he countered with what God told Job - who are you to question me? If some are chosen for damnation - it is a mystery belonging to God alone.

And all would agree! :+1:t3:

Peace!!!

 

[HeDa]

Dr David Anders at EWTNs “Called to Communion” answers this question every month at least once if not twice. His answer is the best I have heard or read. I would guess it is one of the top 20 questions asked on the programme.

 

[Nita]

1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 show that God desires all to be saved. The 2nd Peter passage certainly implies that man has the capacity to choose to turn from evil. “Repentance” is an act the individual person has to choose to do.

> but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

There are also some Old Testament passages that show God acknowledges man’s free will to choose and accepts his choices. Read for example Ezekiel 33 - there are several verses in that chapter. (Eg. verse 11: “As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; …”
Ezekiel 18 is another good chapter.

In Jeremiah 26:3 the Lord says: “It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the evil which I intend to do to them because of their evil doings.”

 

[Nita]

There is the sense in which every single person born into a Christian family that practices infant Baptism is absolutely predestined by God to receive the grace of salvation (which, of course, is bestowed upon us as soon as we are baptized) through no effort or choice on their (baby’s) part.
It is God who determines/predestines which family each person/soul will be born into. I, fortunately, was predestined by God to be born into a Catholic family. Thank you, Lord. Now whether I retain that grace is dependent on the choices I make until death.

1 John 1:9 IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(We need to choose to confess.)

 

[De_Maria]

Can you point me to verses that describe man as completely dead in his sins and unable to seek God?

No.

Also verses to show where Man can seek and “work” with God and is not totally depraved?

In Athens, St. Paul said to the pagans:

Acts 17:24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.