Forum Rules

[SpiritMeadow]

The irony…

I wonder; do the forum rules state that Catholics have to be respectful of the FAITH of those non-Catholics they have invited into this forum?

However, I do see both sides here; I, for instance, have a very strict definition of 'knowlege" vs. ‘truth,’ and I believe that it is scripturally based. What you describe as ‘know’ is very, very strong faith, and a willingness to live your life in complete confidence that what you believe to be true IS true; that’s faith, and it is what God meant when He said that faith is what is important, and that knowledge is something else.

You can say you ‘know…’ but we don’t know to the extent that God means when He says ‘know.’ We CAN believe to the extend that we cannot conceive of anything that would change our opinions, or alter our faith. We can have faith to the extent of total conviction.

However…“know?” Not quite; not until we actually see His face. What we CAN have is complete conviction that we will see His face…the two concepts aren’t quite the same thing. So in that sense, I believe that she is correct.

However, where she goes wrong, I believe, is in the idea that this complete conviction (but not ‘knowledge’) is less; that the world is some amorphous relative collection of religious concepts that mean nothing and do less. In fact, religious conviction is about the most solid wall one can run up against. In fact, that level of faith is stronger than knowledge, and it is why God values it, why He gave us the Holy Ghost to confirm it, and why He does NOT give us ‘objective evidence’ for subjective things, like religion. It’s like being handed a measuring cup to figure out how long a board is; wrong system of measurement.

Please be aware of the fact that nothing Kalt says about what I have said is very accurate. I have attempted to correct him at least 4 times and then realized that he cannot grasp what I am saying and just turns it into “I’m trying to make him water down Catholicism.” So argue with him all you wish, but it has nothing to do with anything I said, He is categorically wrong in his statements regarding me, and I have opted out of trying for a fifth time to correct his inability to read. I fully accept that I am not able to explain it in a manner than he can understand. That is my failing, but the fact remains, he utterly doesn’t get what I have said.

Actually in reading your response, I think you have stated it excellently. And I agree with your last paragraph especially. Faith can be very strong subjective truth to the believer. It can be perfect logic and utterly believed to be true. What it cannot do is enter the market place of society and be acknowledged as “truth.” It cannot for faith is faith, believed about what cannot be proven. I think you see the difference, and that is all I was driving at.

 

[Peter_J]

You haven’t answered the question, though. Why do you think Fr Serpa’s satement and the entry from the CCC are not in line with Catholic thinking?

The statement I was responding to was from SpiritMeadow. (As far as I know, SpiritMeadow has never called herself “Fr. Serpa”, much less claimed to be the CCC. Your statements are getting a bit outlandish.)

Originally Posted by SpiritMeadow
Every catholic must believe what the Church teaches.

As for why I said that that’s not the Catholic way of looking at it, all I can say is that you obviously having been reading my posts (including the one I just quoted) very attentively.

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by SpiritMeadow
Every catholic must believe what the Church teaches.

SpiritMeadow,

I hope you’ll excuse me if I got a little too nitpicky and/or technical there. Your statement “Every catholic must believe what the Church teaches” was undoubtedly meant in a colloquial sense.

(That’s the last I’ll say on the matter.)

 

[racing59]

What I don’t understand is that I’m a non-Catholic, but I am a Christian of no denomination, does that not make me auto- matically direspectuful to RCC who believe they have the Fullness of Truth? I come here with now agenda,but to learn from others of many faiths, is that wrong of me? I have questions of certain things that are in the Bible no one can answer me, is that offensive? To be in RCC it is my understanding I must except all her teachings, but I’ve tried to learn and there are things that still bother me, is that disrespectfull? I have been in search my whole life of Truth, it is hard for me to believe one Church has all the answers, is that disrepectfull? I have a wife and beautiful children it is my responsibiltiy to guide them, so I ask alot of questions.There are those of us searching with no agenda,just questions in order to make good sound decistions for the Spirituallity in their families. I ask we remeber that on some of our post.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

There are respectful ways to disagree and there are disrespectful ways to disagree.

Here’s an example of what I’m saying.

1. 
   *]I don’t believe in praying to Mary or the saints.
   *]Praying to Mary or the saints is a pagan practice.
   
   One states the obvious disagreement and can, or should, be acceptable; the other is an ad hominem worded statement, which is viewed as an attack. It’s hard to imagine someone accidently words an ad hominem type statement, especially when one has time to preview and reflect prior to clicking the submit button.

1. 
   I guess I better chime in here (since I’m an atheist & seem to one of the targets of this effort to chill dissenting views, which is what I thought the “non-Catholic” religions forums are for).
   
   In this case, what if a non-Catholic believes venerating Mary really does amount to paganism (I obviously don’t feel this way … but I’m setting this up as an illustration).
   
   Would you rather be shielded from how others feel about your religion, or confront their views? I’d be willing to bet most protestants make this charge without really understanding Catholic Mariology … so would you like them to continue in their erroneous views toward your religious practices and continue to run around America telling everyone what pagan heathens Catholics are? Or do you at least want the opportunity to defend your faith no matter how rigorous the attack (within certain obvious boundaries)?
   
   I don’t think many of you guys are really thinking this through. I’m a cradle Catholic, but I’ve lost my faith. I lost it for many of the reasons some here would like to censor. So should I be silenced, or allowed to voice my true opinion (politely of course)?
   
   Just because there’s some other web sites out there (that may be protestant) that are internet theocracies does that mean you should stoop to their level? Does two wrongs make a right? I have visited many protestant sites that allow quite open discussion (and moderation is limited to unnecessary rudeness).
   
   It’s one thing if I say I believe the bible isn’t true … but yet another if I say all religious people are idiots (the latter is never something I would say, yet the former is what I truly believe).
   
   Please tell me how I should conduct myself (or if I should bother at all). I will just say it seems to me if you’re going to have non-Catholic forums but at the same time expect everyone who participates in that forum to agree with Catholicism … it would seem pretty strange? As far as having an agenda … everyone has some sort of agenda in life, I’m not sure how anyone thinks we can reach through cyber space into someones mind & discern whether or not they have an agenda (or why it should matter). I don’t think I have an agenda … but maybe deep down I do (I avoid shrinks so I don’t explore such deep questions).

 

[guanophore]

The irony....

I wonder; do the forum rules state that Catholics have to be respectful of the FAITH of those non-Catholics they have invited into this forum?

Not that I have ever noticed. I don’t find it ironic, though. It is a Catholic site, and Catholics are not expected to have respect for doctrines considered by the Church to be heresies.

We are expected to be respectful of the PERSONS who espose those beliefs, though, and to be charitable.

 

[kalt]

The statement I was responding to was from SpiritMeadow. (As far as I know, SpiritMeadow has never called herself “Fr. Serpa”, much less claimed to be the CCC. Your statements are getting a bit outlandish.)

As for why I said that that’s not the Catholic way of looking at it, all I can say is that you obviously having been reading my posts (including the one I just quoted) very attentively.

Why can’t you just admit that you’ve made an error? SM and you were both talking about the statement I made, and which I quoted. So that you weren’t responding directly to the post the statement was first made in is irrelevant.

There’s no shame in making an error. Persisting in it is foolish, though. And I see that you haven’t persisted in saying that it’s not in line with Catholic thinking, so what’s the big deal?

 

[kalt]

What I don’t understand is that I’m a non-Catholic, but I am a Christian of no denomination, does that not make me auto- matically direspectuful to RCC who believe they have the Fullness of Truth? I come here with now agenda,but to learn from others of many faiths, is that wrong of me? I have questions of certain things that are in the Bible no one can answer me, is that offensive? To be in RCC it is my understanding I must except all her teachings, but I’ve tried to learn and there are things that still bother me, is that disrespectfull? I have been in search my whole life of Truth, it is hard for me to believe one Church has all the answers, is that disrepectfull? I have a wife and beautiful children it is my responsibiltiy to guide them, so I ask alot of questions.There are those of us searching with no agenda,just questions in order to make good sound decistions for the Spirituallity in their families. I ask we remeber that on some of our post.

No. Disagreeing with a faith isn’t being disrespectful. There are some here who are disprespectful to the Catholics’ faith, and they want to play victim and say that CAF is unfair. CAF isn’t unfair.

Plenty of debates get kind of hot on this board, but only a few people cross the line.

Even heated debate doesn’t have to include disrespect.

Ask any questions you want. Debate any points you have trouble with. You aren’t disprespectful, and you shouldn’t let a few others spoil it for you.

 

[kalt]

I guess I better chime in here (since I’m an atheist & seem to one of the targets of this effort to chill dissenting views, which is what I thought the “non-Catholic” religions forums are for).

In this case, what if a non-Catholic believes venerating Mary really does amount to paganism (I obviously don’t feel this way … but I’m setting this up as an illustration).

Would you rather be shielded from how others feel about your religion, or confront their views? I’d be willing to bet most protestants make this charge without really understanding Catholic Mariology … so would you like them to continue in their erroneous views toward your religious practices and continue to run around America telling everyone what pagan heathens Catholics are? Or do you at least want the opportunity to defend your faith no matter how rigorous the attack (within certain obvious boundaries)?

I don’t think many of you guys are really thinking this through. I’m a cradle Catholic, but I’ve lost my faith. I lost it for many of the reasons some here would like to censor. So should I be silenced, or allowed to voice my true opinion (politely of course)?

Just because there’s some other web sites out there (that may be protestant) that are internet theocracies does that mean you should stoop to their level? Does two wrongs make a right? I have visited many protestant sites that allow quite open discussion (and moderation is limited to unnecessary rudeness).

It’s one thing if I say I believe the bible isn’t true … but yet another if I say all religious people are idiots (the latter is never something I would say, yet the former is what I truly believe).

Please tell me how I should conduct myself (or if I should bother at all). I will just say it seems to me if you’re going to have non-Catholic forums but at the same time expect everyone who participates in that forum to agree with Catholicism … it would seem pretty strange? As far as having an agenda … everyone has some sort of agenda in life, I’m not sure how anyone thinks we can reach through cyber space into someones mind & discern whether or not they have an agenda (or why it should matter). I don’t think I have an agenda … but maybe deep down I do (I avoid shrinks so I don’t explore such deep questions).

I think the difference is that anyone can say what they think about the CC and its practices, but to claim that Catholics believe or are actually doing (have the intention) what you claim is another thing. Someone might think that Easter is a pagan holiday, but to claim that Christians are celebrating a pagan holiday is disprespectful to their faith, because you would be denying that they know what they actually believe, or it could be understood that you are accusing them of lying about what they actually do.

Saying that you think the Bible is bogus is OK. Insisting that all Christians either also think it’s bogus, or should think it’s bogus (if they aren’t idiots) is another.

I may think something about atheists, but to insist that they hold the same view about themselves would be over the line.

Did I make that more clear or more muddy?

Dissenting views are one thing. Being disrespectful of a person’s faith, especially in their own home (on a Catholic site) is another thing altogether. I don’t know why you think this thread is about squealching dissenting views. A few quilty consciences don’t change the purpose of the thread–to discuss the forum rules about being respectful of the faith of the Catholics on the boards. That isn’t the same as silencing dissenting views. You’ve been an example of how you can have a dissenting view without being a clod.

 

[kalt]

Why can’t you just admit that you’ve made an error? SM and you were both talking about the statement I quoted, and which I quoted again. That you weren’t responding directly to the post the statement was first made in is irrelevant–you were responding to Fr Serpa’s statement. I think both of you may not have realized that it was made by Fr Serpa and that it was a paraphrase of the CCC paragraphs that were quoted after.

There’s no shame in making an error. Persisting in it is foolish, though. And I see that you haven’t persisted in saying that it’s not in line with Catholic thinking, so what’s the big deal?

 

[Peter_J]

Why can’t you just admit that you’ve made an error? SM and you were both talking about the statement I made, and which I quoted. So that you weren’t responding directly to the post the statement was first made in is irrelevant.

There’s no shame in making an error. Persisting in it is foolish, though. And I see that you haven’t persisted in saying that it’s not in line with Catholic thinking, so what’s the big deal?

Wow, you are seriously obsessed with me.

Do yourself a favor: go back and read again. That should clarify your misconceptions.