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tradcathconvert
Guest
You are welcome. I think you and everyone will understand the message inspite of my spelling mistakes.
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TempleofTheSoul
Guest
Ok,… Happy 3rd Sunday after Easter!Happy 3rd Sunday after Easter! (since we’re talking traditional Catholicism here)
- PAX
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jwinch2
Guest
I think there is a fundamental flaw in reasoning in the video that the good Father makes. He is making assumptions as to causation with only poorly established correlation as his guide. Even if his premise is true, and more young people are flocking towards tradition, the idea that the EF of the Mass has led them to embrace this tradition does not hold up. The overwhelming majority of those under the age of 60 were not catechized and formed in a parish which offered the EF of the Mass. What is far more logical based on the information at hand is that traditional minded people seek out traditional parishes so that they can be around people who think similarly to themselves. In a particular diocese, the traditional minded parishes are more likely to offer the EF of the Mass.
In short, trying to make the claim that embracing the EF of the Mass has led to a renewal of focus on tradition is counter-intuitive based on the information at hand. What is more logical, and actually supported by the data available, is that a renewal in focus on tradition has led to an increase in desire for the EF of the Mass. In actuality though, even that is a stretch based on the data as presented. To my knowledge there is no study or survey which has been conducted examining this issue which indicates that any claims which are being made are based off of anecdotal evidence at best.
However, if we assume for a moment that the observations are indeed accurate, it raises the question as to where this focus on tradition has come from. Perhaps it is the focus on teaching the truth of Church doctrine without watering it down and celebrating the OF of the Mass properly that are the issues, not the form of the Mass itself. Don’t get me wrong, I fully support Pope Benedict’s desire that all who desire access to the EF of the Mass have it. However, what I often see is faulty reasoning on the part of those who support its use, such as what is put forth in this video where their own personal preferences are
projected into their analysis.
Peace of Christ,
Jason
In short, trying to make the claim that embracing the EF of the Mass has led to a renewal of focus on tradition is counter-intuitive based on the information at hand. What is more logical, and actually supported by the data available, is that a renewal in focus on tradition has led to an increase in desire for the EF of the Mass. In actuality though, even that is a stretch based on the data as presented. To my knowledge there is no study or survey which has been conducted examining this issue which indicates that any claims which are being made are based off of anecdotal evidence at best.
However, if we assume for a moment that the observations are indeed accurate, it raises the question as to where this focus on tradition has come from. Perhaps it is the focus on teaching the truth of Church doctrine without watering it down and celebrating the OF of the Mass properly that are the issues, not the form of the Mass itself. Don’t get me wrong, I fully support Pope Benedict’s desire that all who desire access to the EF of the Mass have it. However, what I often see is faulty reasoning on the part of those who support its use, such as what is put forth in this video where their own personal preferences are
projected into their analysis.
Peace of Christ,
Jason
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rben20
Guest
Jason,
It think you are looking far to into it. Two generations are removed from the EF. Anyone from those generations (Xers and millennials) who are showing interest now would be new interest, so it can only grow. More both young and old are being exposed to the ancient rite thanks to Pope Benedict XVI. I would trust Father Kramer on his comments. Many clergy have spoken of the tumultuous time that was the 60s and the general rebellion that even found its way into the church. He was there after all. Father Z even said couple of months ago the seminarian increase is in large part to the ancient rite. This is GOOD for the church not just traditional like minded folk but everyone as the ancient rite is to “rub off” on the OF, one of several reasons why Pope Benedict made it more freely accessible to priests.
It think you are looking far to into it. Two generations are removed from the EF. Anyone from those generations (Xers and millennials) who are showing interest now would be new interest, so it can only grow. More both young and old are being exposed to the ancient rite thanks to Pope Benedict XVI. I would trust Father Kramer on his comments. Many clergy have spoken of the tumultuous time that was the 60s and the general rebellion that even found its way into the church. He was there after all. Father Z even said couple of months ago the seminarian increase is in large part to the ancient rite. This is GOOD for the church not just traditional like minded folk but everyone as the ancient rite is to “rub off” on the OF, one of several reasons why Pope Benedict made it more freely accessible to priests.
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TimothyH
Guest
apostates, heretics and the faithful few…
I have to be honest. Posts like this make me scared to go to the EF.
-Tim-
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jwinch2
Guest
I don’t deny that there have been rough times. I don’t deny that having access to the EF of the Mass is good for the Church. And, I hope that the EF does rub off on the OF in the sense that it is celebrated with more dignity and reverence. However, the claims made in the video still do not add up.
More than likely, young people who have developed into traditional minded Catholics have done so because their parents actually took the job of educating their children in the Faith seriously. Those parents were also probably the same ones who lived their Faith outside of church and hung around others who did the same. If that preference for tradition has led them to the EF and they now prefer it, good for them. I have absolutely zero problem with that.
However, in order claim causality one must have both correlation and time course. Correlation has not been really established other than in the anecdotal opinion of some. And time course actually seems to show the opposite. We have people who are traditional leaning who seek out the EF of the Mass, not people seeking out the EF Mass and then becoming traditional as a result. As you noted, there are two generations who have not really been exposed to the EF Mass. As such, giving it credit for any preference for tradition on their part is not supported by the evidence at hand. Far more likely in my opinion is that these same people have come to appreciate the orthodox teaching of the Church and believe that they are more likely to find it, and other Catholics who agree with them, at parishes which celebrate the EF. They are probably correct in their belief.
However, as I noted earlier this all begs the question of what would happen if we had the same set of circumstances but with the OF Mass instead. If we took the same kids with parents who took their faith, and passing it on seriously; if those kids hung around other kids who were raised in similar fashion; if they went to a parish where the OF of the Mass was celebrated with dignity and reverence and teaching and preaching was orthodox and bold. Honestly, if that were to happen, I think we would end up with the same product of people who love God, love the Church, and want to be faithful Catholics.
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ImmaculataFides
Guest
I think it was fairly obvious that I was referring to Catholics in the West.
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ImmaculataFides
Guest
He would of been regarded as an extremist, a heretic, apostate, schismatic, far right-winger who hates the Pope.
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ImmaculataFides
Guest
How exactly? It’s the truth. Only 5-15% of Catholics as a whole in the West attend Mass every Sunday. Today’s young Catholics were brought up by the Vatican II generation; parents who the far majority no longer attend Mass or believe all the Sacred Truths divinely revealed to the Catholic Church.
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rben20
Guest
I am actually of the latter. I never knew much about the EF or traditions of the ancient rite. I discovered the traditions of the church through the EF. Perhaps I am an anomaly but since I am of the most recent generation, I doubt it very much. We didn’t know about this at all since all we knew was the OF. We didn’t grow up with any changes, the change was the norm. Even the use of Latin was a well kept secret. I just got nosy enough to look at the history of the church
I agree. I don’t think the OF has been given a good enough chance. It barely has gotten off its feet in many ways. I’m not sure it ever will with talks of a new missal that is neither OF or EF. It’s this kind of thinking by the Church that makes me wonder why we even bothered to change anything to begin with but I just listen either way
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TrueLight
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What is this talk of a new missal?
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Just whispers of speculation on how Benedict has talked of “mutual enrichment.” Just one possibility of something that could maybe perhaps mayhap happen sometime in the future.
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jwinch2
Guest
It isn’t even remotely true there either.
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rben20
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catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/05/20/the-pope%E2%80%99s-ambition-a-powerful-blend-of-the-novus-ordo-and-the-old-rite-could-sweep-the-church/
This is where I first heard it Truelight. I don’t think it’s far fetched considering we are the only rite with “two forms” two calendars, two offices etc that I can think of!
This is where I first heard it Truelight. I don’t think it’s far fetched considering we are the only rite with “two forms” two calendars, two offices etc that I can think of!
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wasserfall
Guest
No doubt there are those who wish to (once again) dismantle the old mass, but it won’t happen, because Pope Benedict is smart enough to realize that it would undo decades of work to fully reintegrate the traditionalists back into the Church.
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