Free Will & an Atheist

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When talking w/ my atheist friend today about religion he said (as he had in the past) that he doesn’t agree w/ free will. I tried to explain the fact that god wants us to love him for him, however the discussion then digressed into other things such as why would got put a soul into hell (I answered that the soul separated itself from God), and if they reject God & Heaven why doesn’t God create another nice place for them or improve hell. My only response to the latter two questions was that if they separated themselves from God & Heaven rejecting him why would they accept a different place & that God wouldn’t want to improve hell because Satan who tempts us will be put there forever.

So in summary I need the following questions answered:
  1. Why can’t Angels (or people after their death) change their minds and accept God, esp. if they learn of his justice (the bible said that those in hell would praise God’s justice if I remember correctly)?
  2. Why can’t God change Satans heart in particular?
  3. Why did God give us free will if we could be happy forever with God if he didn’t? (or a refined free will as the saints in heaven have?)
  4. Why can’t God create a separate place for those who reject him - one where they won’t suffer eternally?
Thank you everyone!

Catholig
 
Catholig said:
  1. Why can’t Angels (or people after their death) change their minds and accept God, esp. if they learn of his justice (the bible said that those in hell would praise God’s justice if I remember correctly)?
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Angels exist outside of space and time. Because of this, when they make a decision, they make a decision. They can look forward (from outside of time) and see all the ramifications of their decisions. And yet they still make that decision.
  1. Why can’t God change Satans heart in particular?
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God could. God is All-Powerful. Who says He couldn’t violate Satan’s being and rip his will away from him, forcing him to bend to God’s Will. Oh yeah, that would sort of make God behave like Satan, wouldn’t it? You get the picture?
  1. Why did God give us free will if we could be happy forever with God if he didn’t? (or a refined free will as the saints in heaven have?)
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This is a tough one. I’ve got a couple of ideas, but I’d like some time to formulate them. It goes something like, “If someone earns a million dollars from the sweat of their brow, they come to appreciate it. If their child inherits the money and never knew poverty, do they appreciate the great gift this money was?” Maybe someone can help flesh this out if it’s going in the right direction.
  1. Why can’t God create a separate place for those who reject him - one where they won’t suffer eternally?
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God loves us so much that He gives us what we want. If we choose sin over God, then that means we love the sin more than we love Him. By sinning, we reject God and don’t want Him in our lives. So, God simply lets us go to a place where He’s not. That’s what the suffering comes from the knowledge, that we had this great gift (God’s Love - reflect on the million dollar inheritance in my last example) and we willingly gave it away.

Good Luck!
 
NotWorthy,

I still want others to contribute, however thank you very much for your help. Maybe w/ a bit of help your ideas can be fleshed out to a point, where I can understand them, and tweak them to my mind so that I may explain it to him better.

Catholig
 
Catholig,

I agree. My post was certainly not a “thread-killer”. And, as proven time and time again, I’m just an idiot who happens to have a keyboard and an internet connection!!! 🙂
 
Catholig,

My first reaction to your question was to think why an atheist was even interested in something so non-materialistic as the concept of God? All your friends question can only be answered or understood if first on accepts the existance of a metaphysical reality - a true atheist cannot. Perhaps your friend is seeking ways to disprove the existance of any god, in general, and the God we believe has been revealed to us through Scripture and Apostolic Tradition, which ultimately reveals the Incarnation and the Trinity.

But as far as the questions themselves, I think we should approach Free Will from the understanding or in lght of God’s absolute Love. If we reflect on our own humanity I think from experience that if we truly love someone then we must allow that person “Freedom”

I think this concept is well developed in our understanding of what we call “Christian Love” or “Agape”. The coming our of ourselves and placing the other’s good as our priority. Our Holy Father likes to say we need a Coperinican Revolution of our heart - that is we we no longer are the center of our own world when everyone and everything else revolves around us. It’s that total giving of self. And doesn’t human experience show that part of true love for another is to allow each and everyone his or her freedom?

And if the characteristics we find in a finite form in our human nature are actually reflections of the same characteristics of God except in God these are found in the perfect forms. So if from human experience we know that rooted in or love for another is our allowing the other person freedom wouldn’t it stand to reason this would be found in its perfection in God’s creative act? So I think “Free Will” has to be understood in light of God’s perfect Love for His creation, that is “Man”.
 
Catholig said:
  1. Why did God give us free will if we could be happy forever with God if he didn’t? (or a refined free will as the saints in heaven have?)
  2. Why can’t God create a separate place for those who reject him - one where they won’t suffer eternally?
Thank you everyone!

Catholig
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I think 1 and 2 have already been answered well. My 2 cents on 3) and 4).
  1. For us to truly love God, we must freely choose it. If it is forced it is not love. Imagine if you could force the man/women of your dreams to love you. Would you? How you you ever believe in their love if you knew if was forced. I think it is the same with God.
  2. You can not have good without bad. For Heaven to be eternal bliss, the opposite must be eternal suffering. Once he damned know they could have had Heaven, they will suffer eternally the loss of God.
God Bless
 
I would like to admend something I wrote in my first post and then add a few more thoughts.

First, in my first paragraph I allowed my skepticism shine through when I questioned why an atheist would be asking a question concerning God. I was wrong to question this because I soon realized that here may be a golden opportunity for evangelization. I was wrong for questioning the person’s motives and I apologize.

The are two further points I would like to make. First, as was presented by “bilop” unless we are truly free then we cannot be free to return God’s unconditional love unconditionally or at least to the extent we finite creatures can return God’s Love. Here I would suggest that we reflect on the meaning or reason for the Immaculate Conception and contemplate why this great gift of God to Our Blessed Mother was (is) so important. Again I encourage all to read the works of our Holy Father on this as well as Hans Urs von Bathasar and all others these two great theologians reference.

Secondly, as I firml believe the scriptures are God’s Revelation (along with Sacred Tradition) they are still written through human language and understanding. Since God is so “Other” we can only express our understanding in human terms. I think this is reflected in the expression that God send’s us to Hell or any other similar expression. However, is this really the God who is revealed to us in the Incarnation and Christ Jesus’ teachings? Rather, isn’t what Christ Jesus taught us is God’s love and mercy is unending so much so that often we may be tempted to say it’s almost stupid? If you study the works of most biblical scholars (yes modern scholars) one thing they all seem to agree on is the God revealed to us in the parables of Jesus is the Father’s Great Mercy. Every scholar (exegete) I have read (from Our Holy Father to John Crossan) point this out especially in the parables of the Lost Sheep, the Lost Coin, The hired hands who we hired at the end of the day but received a full day’s wage, and the ultimate parable of the Loving Father/Prodical Son.

So I think we don’t do the scriptures justice if we cannot look beyond the human expressions of God being a judge ready to send souls to Hell. As expressed before by others, we have the “Will” to either accept the Father’s love and live our lives the way we have been called to live and expressed in Jesus’ parable of the final judgement (Matt 25) or reject God’s live, push Him out of our lives and create for us our own hell. So in a sense God does judge us in that he has establish how me must live, the standards we must live by, however, the punishment of hell, when ou think about it is not a punishment from without but the natural outcome of our actions. One similie I like to use is our actions are like being in a room flooded by sunlight. If we choose to allow the sun to continue to radiate it light in the room this is like one choosing to live in God’s light. But if we choose to close the shudders and pull down the shades, the sun is still there shinning its light be it though our actions that we now live in darkness. God’s Love (like the sun shine) is always there but it is our choice to live in it or darkness.
 
NotWorthy said:
God loves us so much that He gives us what we want. If we choose sin over God, then that means we love the sin more than we love Him. By sinning, we reject God and don’t want Him in our lives. So, God simply lets us go to a place where He’s not. That’s what the suffering comes from the knowledge, that we had this great gift (God’s Love - reflect on the million dollar inheritance in my last example) and we willingly gave it away.
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But wouldn’t that mean that the sinners repent?

And why couldn’t God just destroy the person instead of keeping him in existence in Hell forever? I know many atheists who would much prefer becoming nothing to going to hell…

If God gives us free will, why not give us the third option (apart from a: being with God and b: everlasting pain) to cease existing after this life?
  • Steffen
 
steffenlaursen said:
But wouldn’t that mean that the sinners repent?

And why couldn’t God just destroy the person instead of keeping him in existence in Hell forever? I know many atheists who would much prefer becoming nothing to going to hell…

If God gives us free will, why not give us the third option (apart from a: being with God and b: everlasting pain) to cease existing after this life?
  • Steffen
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Maybe to cease to exist is the worst thing that could happen.

I’m not sure if hell is the fire and brimstone, or if Jesus was simpy using Apocalyptic language. I understand hell is simply the absence of God, and the knowledge that it was your choice. If you didn’t want God in your life, why should you want God in your after-life?
 
Steffenlaursen,
I saw your question to Notworthy about God just destroying a sinner. I think it is important to remember that it is not in God nature to destroy but to create. In a way the answer is God cannot destroy what He has created (it’s not in His nature).
 
But since God is ultimately the source of all existance, could he not just cease sustaining the individual’s existence?

If that is what his creature wanted, wouldn’t it be the most loving act?
  • Steffen
 
steffenlaursen said:
But since God is ultimately the source of all existance, could he not just cease sustaining the individual’s existence?

If that is what his creature wanted, wouldn’t it be the most loving act?
  • Steffen
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If life is good, then what would the destruction of life be?
 
Catholig said:
So in summary I need the following questions answered:
  1. Why can’t Angels (or people after their death) change their minds and accept God, esp. if they learn of his justice (the bible said that those in hell would praise God’s justice if I remember correctly)?
  2. Why can’t God change Satans heart in particular?
  3. Why did God give us free will if we could be happy forever with God if he didn’t? (or a refined free will as the saints in heaven have?)
  4. Why can’t God create a separate place for those who reject him - one where they won’t suffer eternally?
Thank you everyone!

Catholig
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  1. Life is NOW. This is a proper time to make decisions and to earn salvation. Now is the time of mercy, after death there will be only justice. Blessed are those who believed although they haven’t seen (I’m not sure about the English translation:) This is faith.
    2)It’s too late now. Some angels decided to be disobedient although they saw and knew God. They became fallen angels and the reason why there’s no return for them is the knowledge of God (Jesus explained it to Faustina).
    3)What’s the point in creating brainless puppets? We are created in the image and likeness of God - we can love, we are intelligent and we have free will. God wants to be loved by such creatures.
    4)There can’t be such a place. Jesus many times says about painful punishment for those who don’t believe in him and who reject him. The choice is simple - eternal happiness or eternal suffering.
I know you care about your friend and you want to protect him from damnation. But this is life, hell exists. Modern culture tries to tell us there’s no devil and no hell and many people believe it. That’s devils victory. God risked a lot when he created us, he knew we could reject him… God bless
 
steffenlaursen said:
But since God is ultimately the source of all existance, could he not just cease sustaining the individual’s existence?

If that is what his creature wanted, wouldn’t it be the most loving act?
  • Steffen
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Remember God is BOTH infinitely loving and infinitely just. He also does not change. He created Man with an immortal soul. God, by his nature, can not change his mind. The soul is immortal for the saved and the damned. Therefore, in justice, those who reject Him must be subject to eternal damnation.

That said, we don’t know exactly what that damnation entails, and how it differs among the damned. There may be different degrees of suffering, we just don’t know. But Jesus clearly speaks of unquenchable fire, so we know it’s bad.

God Bless
 
But existence in Hell is not exactly the life God created, so why keep sustaining it?
Therefore, in justice, those who reject Him must be subject to eternal damnation.
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How is it justice that God gives man a free choice between serving him and serving the self, and then punish man for choosing wrong?
  • Steffen
 
Steffen,

I am not denying the physical reality of hell’s existance, however, I think it may help to look at hell as a state of being. Consider this, you may love someone and your love may be unconditional.
Still, that person can either accept your love or reject it. When someone rejects God’s unconditional love, we call the state they are in hell.

I can see, one of the biggest difficulities you and I have trying to understand this whole question of free will along with heaven and hell is we both exist in the physical world, a world of change so it’s hard to grasp the eternal where there is no change. Here on earth were change exist there always remains the possibility that we can have that metonia ( the fundelmental change of heart and attitude) and choose to live in God’s love, accepting the demand
of living in God’s love places on us. That is living a life, as best as we can, loving our neighbor - seeking his good ahead of our own. And understanding who our neighbor is as taught by Christ Jesus in his parable of the Good Samaritan, namely our neighbor is anyone, including and especially those we consider our enemy. Any as we find in the parable of the Last Judgement (Matt 25) this is how we will be judged, which, when you think about it, this is a judgement we bring on our self.
 
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