Free will, God's omniscience & omnipotence, and evil

[japhy]

I got into a discussion on Twitter (I know…) about God’s omniscience and omnipotence, our free will, and the existence of evil (natural and man-made) in the world.

The gist of my interlocutor’s argument is this:

“Did God know what the outcome would be when he created us? Didn’t he have an infinite number of outcomes to choose from? He chose to create us as we are out of an infinite possible number of creations. If, when he created the universe, he knew this specific result would happen, then we have no free will. If he did not know, he’s not omniscient. If he could have created an Adam and Eve that would want to make different choices, then it was his choice to create the current outcomes. No matter our decisions, we didn’t mutually agree on these outcomes: He chose first, and our choice was predetermined before we were born.”

Basically, since God could have created a world where certain outcomes were different (like, where Adam and Eve did not sin) but didn’t, He has already chosen a set of outcomes, so our free will is only producing the outcomes of the reality which God chose; is that really free, then?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

This assumes that there is a world in which no one would ever sin.

In order to create a world where no one would ever sin, it would have to be impossible to sin, thereby robbing us of our free will. Since God desires that we love Him, and since love can only be given freely, it is necessary that we have the ability to chose against Him.

The other person is wrongly asserting that knowledge of an outcome is the same of willing or creating that outcome. I can know the outcome to an action, but that doesn’t mean that I am the root cause of that action, or that I desire that outcome. If I’m standing on a mountaintop, and I see two trains going opposite directions on the same track, then I know those trains are going to hit each other. I am not the cause of that collision, nor do I will it to occur, but I still know it’s going to happen.
God knows the outcome of every conceivable choice throughout all eternity, but that doesn’t mean He was sitting back and picking out the one particular time line He wanted to see happen.

People who make these types of arguments are frequently trying to justify their choices by claiming they never had a choice to begin with. They don’t want to acknowledge free will, because then they are responsible for their outcome.

 

[promethian_rule]

Interesting point from the interlocutor, and totally ignorant of a reality of God: God is not in time with us.

God did not create the universe with some view of the future of that universe, because God exists outside of time (at least, the time that we have as a dimension of this universe). For God, the moment of creation was, is, and always will be “now”. The moment we’re in right now for God was, is, and always will be “now” for God. The entire future of this universe was, is, and always will be “now” for God.

So God created and ordered the universe in a mysterious eternal “now” that we, as being entrapped in the dimension of time can’t quite understand. If every decision occurs in a single moment for God, and the it’s actually us that is under the illusion that free will and decisions relies on the passage of time, then God can and is both omnipotent and free will exists (because we freely make all of our choices, which occur simultaneously before God’s “eyes”).

As a side note: Quantum mechanics answers this in one way with the many worlds theory, in which free will represents the selection of possible future universes and collapses a wave-form existence (essentially doing away with possible future universes that no longer are compatible). So God sees which possible universe is the eventual collapsed wave-form “reality” all along, while our choices we make (once again, in a single “now” for God) make that path happen…

 

[japhy]

I would rather not attribute motives to the other person (“people who make these types of arguments…”), and prefer to deal with the argument itself.

I have already said in my arguments that love requires free will, and so God created us with free will so that love would be possible, fully aware that love being possible (but not mandatory) means that the opposite of love is also possible.

And he is not arguing for a world where no one would ever sin, just perhaps for a world where people sin less than they have in this one. For example, a world where Cain didn’t kill Abel; that’s one less sin that could have existed.

Our analogies about having foreknowledge of an event (like your train example) fall short when used about God, 1) because God is outside of time, and so He does not see the “future”, rather all things are present to him, and 2) because God is also omnipotent, and thus could choose to intervene and prevent the outcome that we would perceive to be inevitable. So putting God in our place in your example, God created a world where He knows those two trains will collide, but He could just have easily created a world where those two trains do not collide. But God has created a world where they do collide.

 

[Gorgias]

Basically, since God could have created a world where certain outcomes were different (like, where Adam and Eve did not sin) but didn’t, He has already chosen a set of outcomes

The fact that God knows does not imply that he either chose nor disallows our choice. It merely implies that He knows.

If I see you pick up a gun and point it toward a target, then I know that you’re going to fire the gun. However, that in no way means that my knowledge implies that I’m involved in making your choice for you.

so our free will is only producing the outcomes of the reality which God chose; is that really free, then?

God didn’t choose our outcomes. We do. He just knows them. That doesn’t impinge on the fact that, when we make the choices in the context of the time and place in which we make them, that they are still our free choices.

 

[japhy]

Gorgias, my interlocutor’s argument is that God chose one possible universe of all possible universes, and that He chose the universe with the outcomes this one has, with knowledge of what these outcomes are. He could have chosen a universe with different outcomes than the one we have. So while God is not responsible for making the decisions we make that lead to these outcomes, He is responsible for choosing – of all possible worlds – this world, where we make the decisions we make.

Your example falls a bit short, because you don’t truly know if I will fire the gun.

An analogy might be that similar to yours, and in line with his argument, is that I know that if I leave a loaded gun on the table, you will pick it up and fire it; I also know that if I leave an empty gun on the table, you will pick it up and put it back down; and I also know that if I do not put on a gun on the table at all, you will simply walk past the table. I have foreknowledge of all the possible outcomes, and I choose the initial condition: whether there will be a loaded gun, an unloaded gun, or no gun, on the table.

 

[rose321]

Just opinion right or wrong and pondering on.
God has Free Will also, maybe?
God, within HIS own Good Conscious, choose Freely to create all that gave HIM great pleasure, stating it was Good, telling us it was very Good, is this not written?
God Freely choose to create what would give HIM good pleasure and to gaze upon, all He created, when HE looked down upon His Beautiful Garden, which must of given HIM good pleasure?
For who creates what is NOT good for themselves?
Or that which we would not give us great enjoy or great pleasure or built anything that would not serve us, example, like a table, to hold our cup of coffee ?
Who would build a house without planning first? So thought has to come first, desire to do so within, then works?

God also having Free Will, wanting to share such Free Will also to those He created?
For All He dearly Loves, wanting his children to grow and experience for themselves, Love, Joy, Peace, to see the fruits also of their own labor, create with our hands, that which gives us good pleasure also maybe?

But sadly we do not always choose what is right and good and we choose also what is NOT good for us, thus being giving Free Will, it is us who defiles ourselves, for all was good very Good when He created us?

Do not believe our Heavenly Father will ever take away HIS Gift of>> Free Will in All His Wisdom, for in doing so, then He would be guilty of our transgression, would HE not?

Thus Free Will is giving to ALL, along with common sense is all that is needed, giving us instructions to Know right from wrong, Ten Commandments? He forces no one that is what True Love is, is it not?

Free Will is just that, Free Will, choices are ours to make, thus with Free Will>>comes the RIGHT to question, to examine, but what comes also with Free Will, comes responsibility and accountability, in what we choose and how it will effect the Lives of others around us, good or bad?

For He shares Freely in All that is Good, was very good, in what HE has created, expects us to do the same? Thus Free Will is given to All, to continue to build upon the Very Good He also has created, asking us all to continue to also be Fruitful and multiply and cultivate His Garden, take care of it, all the goodness he has created for All He loves Dearly and All that give Him good Pleasure? Peace

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias, my interlocutor’s argument is that God chose one possible universe of all possible universes, and that He chose the universe with the outcomes this one has, with knowledge of what these outcomes are.

You’re going to have to pin down what “all possible universes” means. It sounds like you (or your friend) is calling our current universe, with everything the same except the fact that I had tea with breakfast in this one and coffee with breakfast in another one, a “possible universe”.

That kind of distinction creates a false premise. God didn’t “choose” my breakfast drink this morning; I did. To say that He did sets up a straw man – worse yet, it’s the kind of circular reasoning that’s known as “begging the question.” After all, his premise then becomes “God chose for you to have tea this morning, so therefore you don’t have free will.” Can you see that this is what he’s trying to pull on you? I would reject that sentiment: God created the universe. Full stop. I chose tea for breakfast. Full stop. God knows – eternally – what I would drink for breakfast this morning, but didn’t make the choice for me. Full stop.

He could have chosen a universe with different outcomes than the one we have.

No. What you’re positing is a deterministic universe – one in which God makes all the choices, but lies to us and tells us that we have ‘free will.’ That’s not what Christians believe. Others may believe in that concept – and they’re perfectly free to do so – but that doesn’t mean that we have to buy into their spin on things.

Your example falls a bit short, because you don’t truly know if I will fire the gun.

Agreed, but only because I’m not omniscient. However, with omniscience does not come responsibility for the free decisions of others. Moreover, the closer you come to acting, the more secure I am in my “knowledge” of your action. Imagine the millisecond before you pull the trigger: my “knowledge” is pretty near secure. And, in that moment, the analogy holds quite well.

An analogy might be that similar to yours, and in line with his argument, is that I know that if I leave a loaded gun on the table, you will pick it up and fire it; I also know that if I leave an empty gun on the table, you will pick it up and put it back down; and I also know that if I do not put on a gun on the table at all, you will simply walk past the table. I have foreknowledge of all the possible outcomes, and I choose the initial condition: whether there will be a loaded gun, an unloaded gun, or no gun, on the table.

Nice try. After all, your choice of whether to load the gun leads to the eventual outcome (a gun that’s fired as opposed to one that is not), and if the outcome results in a crime, then you might have a share in the responsibility.

However, there are a couple of problems with your analogy:

• You don’t know that I’ll put the gun down. I might hold on to it and keep looking for ammo that you’ve left lying around.
• Even if you don’t put a gun on the table, I might pick up the table and bash someone with it. Would you claim responsibility for that crime as well?
• Foreknowledge of possible outcomes is not the same as foreknowledge of the actual outcome.
• Your choice of the initial condition does not determine the outcome.

 

[japhy]

Gorgias, yes, the interlocutor is asserting that what Christians perceive as “free will” is in fact determinism, if God is omniscient and omnipotent. And I think I agree with you in your “full stop” paragraph; namely, that God created the universe as it is, and that our decisions (like whether to sin or not, or whether to have tea or not) are not caused by God’s decision to make “this” universe rather than “that” universe.

But this other person is saying that, if free will truly is free, then it should have been possible for God to have created a universe where different decisions were made by humans than have been made in this universe. If that were not possible, then our free will is illusory, if the decisions we have made are truly the only decisions that we ever could have made.

Since I have free will, I could choose at this moment to throw my computer across my desk (“A”). I can also choose not to (“B”). God knows which decision I will make, and whichever one I make is the one He knows I will make (spoiler: it’s “B”), and He created this universe/reality knowing I would make this decision (“B”) at this moment in time. But because I have free will, I could have chosen the opposite action (“A”) than the one I will actually end up choosing, but God will know that’s the decision I’ll choose when He creates the universe. God always has perfect foreknowledge; He knows that in the universe He creates, I will choose “A” or “B” (whichever one I actually choose). But since I have free will, there should be able to be a universe He creates wherein I choose “A” instead of “B” – and by creating that universe (where I choose “A”) instead of this universe (where I choose “B”), (here the language gets tricky) God has “chosen” to for me to make the choice for “A” over “B”. I put “chosen” in quotes because it is my interlocutor’s word, and not the one I want to use.

It’s difficult to wrap my head around because there’s a lot of hypotheticals involved. I don’t want to simply bring up Leibnitz’s “this must be the best of all possible worlds” argument because it seems like a cop-out.

 

[Gorgias]

But this other person is saying that, if free will truly is free, then it should have been possible for God to have created a universe where different decisions were made by humans than have been made in this universe.

That’s not a description of ‘free will’; it’s just another description of ‘determinism’, albeit a deterministic universe different than ours by virtue of 1 or more different courses of action.

If that were not possible, then our free will is illusory, if the decisions we have made are truly the only decisions that we ever could have made.

Again, it’s faulty argumentation. The fact that God – as an omniscient being who exists outside our universe – knows everything inside our universe, does not (in and of itself) mean that what happens inside the universe is deterministic. It merely means that He sees it happen. All of it. Simultaneously and outside the boundaries of time.

But since I have free will, there should be able to be a universe He creates wherein I choose “A” instead of “B” – and by creating that universe (where I choose “A”) instead of this universe (where I choose “B”)

This is where the argument breaks down. God isn’t creating this universe or that universe, with respect to decisions made and actions taken. In fact, these alternate “universes” do not exist. Therefore, God is not making a “choice” between one or the other.

The potential for action does not imply a potential alternate universe. That construct does not exist. If one wishes to argue for it, one may. However, that’s merely an argument that proceeds from the presumption of determinism: in other words, their construct is “fully deterministic universe, chosen arbitrarily (or purposefully) by God.” One cannot start from that presumption and use it prove determinism (if that’s what he is attempting, then he’s “begging the question”).

(here the language gets tricky) God has “chosen” to for me to make the choice for “A” over “B”. I put “chosen” in quotes because it is my interlocutor’s word, and not the one I want to use.

Agreed; I don’t buy it, either. Moreover, I’d challenge the presumption of “choosing” a particular universe. What would that mean? How would He distinguish between them? What would that look like? No… he’s throwing a smokescreen at you, and hoping you don’t see that he’s already decided on determinism and built up his example to fit his choice.

In any case, if he wants to prove that his construct is true, then he’d have to demonstrate the truth of his proposition to us. He’s not doing anything of the sort. (In fact, there’s no way to prove it. So, he’s building his straw man, and having some fun kicking it down. Let him have his fun… but don’t concede the point. )

 

[STT]

Either God can choose the creation or not. He knows our decisions in first case and learn our decisions in the second case (what we call foresee). Free will is an illusion in the first case and God’s knowledge is contingent in the second case.

 

[Gorgias]

Either God can choose the creation or not. He knows our decisions in first case and learn our decisions in the second case (what we call foresee). Free will is an illusion in the first case and God’s knowledge is contingent in the second case.

Hold on. So, you’re calling “God chooses to create” the first case and “God chooses not to create” the second case?

And then, you’re asserting that, once He has created, “He knows our decisions”, but, having decided (?) not to create, “he learns our decisions”?

That doesn’t make any sense. Am I misunderstanding what you’re attempting to say?

 

[STT]

Hold on. So, you’re calling “God chooses to create” the first case and “God chooses not to create” the second case?

And then, you’re asserting that, once He has created, “He knows our decisions”, but, having decided (?) not to create, “he learns our decisions”?

That doesn’t make any sense. Am I misunderstanding what you’re attempting to say?

I meant that either God create the universe imposing how the universe should look like or He sets it free to move. We are not free in the first case and God learn in the second case.

 

[Gorgias]

I meant that either God create the universe imposing how the universe should look like or He sets it free to move. We are not free in the first case and God learn in the second case.

We’ve trod this ground already many times. We are free, and God does not learn. Sorry.

 

[Benadam]

Basically, since God could have created a world where certain outcomes were different (like, where Adam and Eve did not sin) but didn’t, He has already chosen a set of outcomes, so our free will is only producing the outcomes of the reality which God chose; is that really free, then?

I think you are assuming that doing God’s will is an act of slavery. The true object of our will is the good. True freedom is the ability to do what ought to be done. What ought to be done is that which brings about good. The good of all human beings is what God wills.

Jesus demonstrated this when He prayed for God’s will to change in the garden before His terrible suffering on the cross. “Not my will but yours” Jesus says’ before engaging in the greatest act of freedom possible for a human being.

So our creator, being the One in whom we find our ultimate reason and purpose, is where we find the fullness of our freedom. When our will is united to His we experience the fullness of human freedom…

I believe God did choose an outcome in which we would not sin. One in which we would not obstruct our ability t act freely. Isn’t that what He willed?