free will / hell

[sallycallyastic]

I have a question - if God made us with free will then why would we then go to hell if we then use that free will to make a bad choice and to sin? surely He knew that we would do that. Why are we punished for our very nature, if our nature is sinful?

Thanks is advance (and I hope I’ve put this in the right place…),

Sallycallyastic

 

[Trishie]

Our nature is human and we do have a choice for good and evil, also the opportunity to repent.

If you read Matthew 25 verses 31-46, you will see that Jesus demonstrates that people choose good and therefore choose heaven by kind acts towards other people, and reject that those who goodness and heaven by failing to be kind and loving to others. There is always the possibility of repentance.

Those who end up in hell have finally and utterly rejected God’s love and therefore there is no beauty of joy or love in them, because all love, joy, goodness come from God. Evil spirits and lost souls are ugly, hateful, living hell because they have finally and utterly reject, ejected, God from their lives. If you completely reject the light, you are in darkness.

Such people are not punished because of their nature, but they have chosen to reject their true nature as sons and daughters of God by the lack of response to love and goodness of God. I’m not saying this happens to those who do not know God, because if they are charitable to others they are living in God’s love whether they know or not.

I hope that helps.
We always, to the last conscious moment, have the choice to repent and accept God’s love and eternal joy, i.e, have free will until the end.

 

[FRATER_PAVLVS]

I have a question - if God made us with free will then why would we then go to hell if we then use that free will to make a bad choice and to sin? surely He knew that we would do that. Why are we punished for our very nature, if our nature is sinful?

Thanks is advance (and I hope I’ve put this in the right place…),

Sallycallyastic

Answer to the first question: because God gave us A LOT of free will, enough to decide here and now what our eternal life will be. Where there’s a lot of freedom there’s a lot of responsibility. Plus, beside our often erring will there exists God’s mercy.

As for that He surely knew, well, at the same time, alongside our freedom, our life is a very strictly determined process. Things may look random or free when we lack information. So, are you making assessments of what is most probable to you and taking steps to avoid it? Life is determinate and man is definitely able to foresee his own actions, not only God.

As for Why are we punished for our very nature, if our nature is sinful? We aren’t this way. Better read St Thomas d’Aquin’s Summa in order to grip the matter as it is taught.

 

[Will_B]

I have a question - if God made us with free will then why would we then go to hell if we then use that free will to make a bad choice and to sin? surely He knew that we would do that. Why are we punished for our very nature, if our nature is sinful?

Thanks is advance (and I hope I’ve put this in the right place…),

Sallycallyastic

To love or not to love… If God created us without free will, we would automatically love God… We would be nothing more the robots… God gave us the freedom to love… The freedom to obey his commands and the freedom to do as we please… We have a choice.

What do you choose?

A parent will give their child a choice… The child will obey out of love and respect or disobey out of hate or rebellion… What are the consequences? If a teenager, that child may lose a host of privileges. If a younger child they may be sent to their room or even spanked… If the child is a young adult, that child may be asked to leave the family’s house because of disobedience…

Why, because the parent loves the child. Yet we are not perfect parents… God is perfect. God has his way of punishment for the disobedience… God is also merciful… Pardoning our sins and giving us another chance, which we often do not deserve.

 

[Newbie2]

Think of hell as the default; if we do not use our free will to choose God, we default to hell.

 

[Nita]

I have a question - if God made us with free will then why would we then go to hell if we then use that free will to make a bad choice and to sin? surely He knew that we would do that. Why are we punished for our very nature, if our nature is sinful?

Thanks is advance (and I hope I’ve put this in the right place…),

Sallycallyastic

Hell is eternal existence separated from God. Those who go to hell freely choose not to be united with God. They don’t want to be with Him – to accept His way of life, to think like Him, love like Him. You might say they are not so much “punished”, as allowed to exist according to what they freely choose.

Don’t think of hell so much as a physical place, but rather as an eternal state of existence determined by the free choice of our souls (mind and heart). To choose existence separated from God is to choose an existence separated from the source (and therefore totally devoid) of love, peace, joy, truth, … In other words, “hell”.

{By the way, a free will choice to commit serious sin does not automatically mean that we will go to hell. It is only if we refuse to repent of that sin that we are in danger of going to hell.}

Nita

 

[juhothenero]

Think of hell as the default; if we do not use our free will to choose God, we default to hell.

Actually this is not true, that is why church states that a person by no fault of his own does not have faith will still be able to go to heaven if he lives a fairly moral life…

This means the default is heaven

I suppose it changed about 2000 years ago when Jesus died on the cross, it changed from default hell to default heaven but now the problem still is humans can reset the default button with their own actions… if one sins gravely and rejects God then one changed it to default Hell, and he has to change it back… if One then repents he changes it to default heaven and has a possibility to change it back if he so wishes…

 

[juhothenero]

Think of hell as the default; if we do not use our free will to choose God, we default to hell.

Actually this is not true, that is why church states that a person by no fault of his own does not have faith will still be able to go to heaven if he lives a fairly moral life…

This means the default is heaven

I suppose it changed about 2000 years ago when Jesus died on the cross, it changed from default hell to default heaven but now the problem still is humans can reset the default button with their own actions… if one sins gravely and rejects God then one changed it to default Hell, and he has to change it back… if One then repents he changes it to default heaven and has a possibility to change it back if he so wishes…

sorry i posted this twice can a moderator or somebody delete it? i do not know how to delete it

 

[tm30]

I have a question - if God made us with free will then why would we then go to hell if we then use that free will to make a bad choice and to sin? surely He knew that we would do that. Why are we punished for our very nature, if our nature is sinful?

Thanks is advance (and I hope I’ve put this in the right place…),

Sallycallyastic

The choice facing one between heaven and hell is a choice between serving God (total self denial) or serving oneself (total self absorption). When we look at the choice of heaven and hell as merely a sensory decision (where would it FEEL better to exist), we’re ignoring the much MUCH more compulsive aspect of the decisions we make: “me” or “my neighbor”. It may be hard to believe, but many people would prefer to suffer in complete self-absorption than rejoice in complete self-giving. This was the dilemma of Satan, who knew the joy of paradise, but couldn’t bear to serve God and man. So, he chose hell. Many have followed him and will continue to follow that preference, in spite of the logical argument for eternal bliss.

 

[55442andy]

Actually this is not true, that is why church states that a person by no fault of his own does not have faith will still be able to go to heaven if he lives a fairly moral life…

…

The “church” may state this but scripture does not. I’d be happy to list for you all the places in the bible where it says that if you believe in Jesus Christ you will have eternal life. (Start with John 3:16).

Through God’s Grace we are given the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ and therefore receive eternal life. “Living a fairly moral life” doesn’t cut it and I challenge you to find a place in scripture that says it does.

 

[Oakleaf]

Remember, theology defines evil as privation of creation and ultimately non-existence itself.

To go to hell, a being must decisively reject Creation (God/Being/Truth) itself. Decisively. That does not mean question, consider, even act out and sin or even violate other people’s dignity (trespass, to use Jesus’ phrase).

To enter Hell you must decisively reject God/Truth/Being, decisively turn towards evil, and persist in acts of nonbeing to a point where you enter a space no longer consistent with the Created Universe. Bible implies people and spiritual principles (fallen angels) like this are eventually “locked away” somehow (gathered into a black hole?).

Ultimately every step from beginning to end is done as a free act of will: from deceit to fighting truth/creation to fighting the principles of truth themselves to rejecting the Creator decisively.

 

[tobias]

The “church” may state this but scripture does not. I’d be happy to list for you all the places in the bible where it says that if you believe in Jesus Christ you will have eternal life. (Start with John 3:16).

‘Im the beginning’ ‘God made man in his image and likeness’ and ‘walked with him in the garden’. As the church says we were made to ‘know, love and serve God.’ Heaven (life with God) is the default position, for the Lamb was 'slain before the foundations of the world. Man was made for God, but sin got in the way.

And Paul states clearly that there are those who do not have God’s (written) law yet demonstrate, by their very lives, that the law is written on their hearts.

Jesus said He stands at the door of EACH man’s heart and knocks. He does not say he only knocks on the doors of the hearts of those who have heard of Him.

’ Behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.’

It is not biblical to minimize the mercy of Christ.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please stick to the OP’s topic. Take apologetical questions/discussions to the Apologetics forum. And no Philosophy isn’t the Apologetics forum, it’s a subforum–you can post/start new threads in Apologetics. Thank you all.

 

[Newbie2]

Actually this is not true, that is why church states that a person by no fault of his own does not have faith will still be able to go to heaven if he lives a fairly moral life…

This means the default is heaven

I suppose it changed about 2000 years ago when Jesus died on the cross, it changed from default hell to default heaven but now the problem still is humans can reset the default button with their own actions… if one sins gravely and rejects God then one changed it to default Hell, and he has to change it back… if One then repents he changes it to default heaven and has a possibility to change it back if he so wishes…

I guess I meant default if one follows his or her sinful human inclinations.

 

[TheWhim]

I think the question has already been answered by now in a way or another but I’d like to add the general view of the Eastern Fathers on hell that is quite fit to solve the problem.

In summary, the Eastern Fathers think we’ll all be in God’s presence once and God’s eternal light will flow around us – the river of fire. Those who love God will enjoy it, those who have rejected him will suffer. But it’s exactly the same light that penetrates one so God cannot be accused of torturing anybody. I think it’s important to make this clear because what the original poster actually doubts about is this: if God, by his omniscience, knew that this or that person would spiritually wreck and go to a place of Hell to receive everlasting and unnamed torments, why wasn’t he that merciful as to not create him at all?

Well, I think we should beware of questions concerning God’s omniscience. It’s like entering a spiral that ever draws you further down into the bottomless depths of thought, one question following the other, no sure ground ever in sight. But this one question can be resolved. By the conception of the Eastern Fathers and the river of fire.

Take a look at:
philthompson.net/pages/library/rivernotes.html

 

[MindOverMatter]

I think the question has already been answered by now in a way or another but I’d like to add the general view of the Eastern Fathers on hell that is quite fit to solve the problem.

In summary, the Eastern Fathers think we’ll all be in God’s presence once and God’s eternal light will flow around us – the river of fire. Those who love God will enjoy it, those who have rejected him will suffer. But it’s exactly the same light that penetrates one so God cannot be accused of torturing anybody. I think it’s important to make this clear because what the original poster actually doubts about is this: if God, by his omniscience, knew that this or that person would spiritually wreck and go to a place of Hell to receive everlasting and unnamed torments, why wasn’t he that merciful as to not create him at all?

Well, I think we should beware of questions concerning God’s omniscience. It’s like entering a spiral that ever draws you further down into the bottomless depths of thought, one question following the other, no sure ground ever in sight. But this one question can be resolved. By the conception of the Eastern Fathers and the river of fire.

Take a look at:
philthompson.net/pages/library/rivernotes.html

I like this idea. How come Apoligists don’t use it more often? Have they got a problem with the eastern fathers?

 

[TheWhim]

I cannot say. I read up:
newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm
but couldn’t quite derive from it what I looked for. I’d say that one is nearing or already in the midst of dogmatically unsound theology if one sticks to the Eastern Fathers and the river of Fire while being a Roman Catholic. But I’m not sure. Poena damni(the loss of heaven) and poena sensus(physical pain) are both implied by the Eastern view with the major difference that God, respecting free-will, passively admits the decision of his creatures to forfeit His love – his love, the river of fire, they’ll experience as the fires of hell. Instead, according to the traditional Roman Catholic view God positively inflicts the punishment of abode in hell(which is a confined place) and the torments involved on the sinner as an act of divine justice. I cannot say if Rome would object nowadays if a believer firmly holds that God doesn’t inflict the eternal punishment in any positive sense.

The author of the article in the Catholic Encycplodedia argues against this view:

Nor can it be said: the wicked will be punished, but not by any positive infliction: for either death will be the end of their existence, or, forfeiting the rich reward of the good, they will enjoy some lesser degree of happiness. These are arbitrary and vain subterfuges, unsupported by any sound reason; positive punishment is the natural recompense of evil.

But of course the Eastern Fathers are not imagining a state a lesser degree of happiness instead of hell. Therefore the authors invective does not seem to hold.

Again, I’m not sure. I’d dare to say that the River of Fire is at least a very uncertain doctrine to hold. – And we should not forget that the Church, according to the article, holds that hell is really a place, though she has never defined were it can be found. – This, of course, is incompatible with the River of Fire. But if again I return to the conception of divine love experienced as hell, which I wanted to point out, well, I’ve no clue. Obviously I’m no expert in dogmatic theology.

Still, another nice side-issue may be bordered on, the question if hell fire is a physical fire:

However, we must not forget two things: from Catharinus (d. 1553) to our times there have never been wanting theologians who interpret the Scriptural term fire metaphorically, as denoting an incorporeal fire; and secondly, thus far the Church has not censured their opinion.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I have a question - if God made us with free will then why would we then go to hell if we then use that free will to make a bad choice and to sin?

Why did He give us fee will? He did so because He wanted us to be persons, like Him.

Why did He give us free will here, on earth? He did so because by being in this physical dying world we can change our minds (a capability not available to the angels/demons, the OTHER type of person that isn’t God Himself), and come to understand why choosing God over not-God is a good thing and preferable.

We only choose hell for ourselves if we stubbornly choose not-God over God, contrary to what we have learned during life, as our most cherished “want”.

surely He knew that we would do that. Why are we punished for our very nature, if our nature is sinful?

Sallycallyastic

Our nature is not sinful. Our nature is determined by us in our choices. Our nature IS concupiscent, which means we have an attraction toward sin, but that attraction can never overcome our need (attraction) for God if we know who God is.

The determiner of whether we sin is not God who knows we will sin, but we who do sin. We choose to commit mortal sin, that sin which is the only way to hell, and we choose to prefer that mortal sin to God as our “final” decision, which lasts into eternity.

 

[AndyF]

… I’d be happy to list for you all the places in the bible where it says that if you believe in Jesus Christ you will have eternal life. (Start with John 3:16).

2 Step process. For Protestants it’s a one step.

Once stage one,believing, is satisfied, and that is no easy task for some, stage two, acting out, that believe in earnest must follow.

How many have murdered and steal and “found Jesus” and believed they are “saved”, and continue to do these things in false confidence. Getting out of false churches/hence bad advice and entering the only true Apostolic Church is a reassurance one receives the correct information.

Incidentally, Catholics (and baptized Christians) that decide to accept the Sacrament of Penance and are absolved and complete their penance are absolutely in a state of salvation unless they fall out of grace again.

But few non Catholics accept it due in part to mis-information.



AndyF

 

[3937mcallip]

of course it does not make sense, neither do invisible unicorns.