Free Will

[fentonsteve]

Since we have free will, and our Father knows every decision we are going to make prior to our existence and hence our final outcome, why does he even create us and have us go through the joys/trials of life? Why not just have us in Heaven/Hell in the first place?

 

[The_Barrister]

fentonsteve:

Since we have free will, and our Father knows every decision we are going to make prior to our existence and hence our final outcome, why does he even create us and have us go through the joys/trials of life? Why not just have us in Heaven/Hell in the first place?

Trolling? Or honestly seeking an answer to an honest question?

The simple answer is that you should not confuse God’s omnipotence with our free will. The two are completely separate. God may know what we’re going to do, but the decision to do it is ours.

Plus, there’s no value to God in being worshipped by creatures bound to worship him.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Quite true, Barrister.

In addition, God is above “time”. The idea that God makes us, at moment (x), then sees us “moving through time” to death at moment (Z), while our life is line (Y) is a grossly human and finite vision of His omniscience.

I don’t know who originally came up with this example, but it struck me.

God, being “beyond” time, creates us, we live, die, and are judged, not in “linear” time, but as one “infinity moment”. God “knows” what we do and sees us doing it at “one and the same” time. Seeing us do an action (of our free will), He is neither causing us to do the action (which would NEGATE our free will) nor “predestining” us to hell–or heaven.

Thankfully I’m not a mathematician, so this scenario worked very well for me.

 

[fentonsteve]

The Barrister:

Trolling? Or honestly seeking an answer to an honest question?

The simple answer is that you should not confuse God’s omnipotence with our free will. The two are completely separate. God may know what we’re going to do, but the decision to do it is ours.

Plus, there’s no value to God in being worshipped by creatures bound to worship him.

Never trolling and always honestly seeking…
I don’t imagine that God needs anything including being worshipped. But the angels are bound to worship him by their own existence. I have struggled for a long time with the free will aspect. Not that we don’t have it, but if the outcome is already known which I believe it is, why are we subject to the situation(s)?

 

[fentonsteve]

Tantum ergo:

Quite true, Barrister.

In addition, God is above “time”. The idea that God makes us, at moment (x), then sees us “moving through time” to death at moment (Z), while our life is line (Y) is a grossly human and finite vision of His omniscience.

I don’t know who originally came up with this example, but it struck me.

God, being “beyond” time, creates us, we live, die, and are judged, not in “linear” time, but as one “infinity moment”. God “knows” what we do and sees us doing it at “one and the same” time. Seeing us do an action (of our free will), He is neither causing us to do the action (which would NEGATE our free will) nor “predestining” us to hell–or heaven.

Thankfully I’m not a mathematician, so this scenario worked very well for me.

That is an excellent example, and will help me considerably try to understand. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut!

 

[The_Barrister]

fentonsteve:

Never trolling and always honestly seeking…
I don’t imagine that God needs anything including being worshipped. But the angels are bound to worship him by their own existence. I have struggled for a long time with the free will aspect. Not that we don’t have it, but if the outcome is already known which I believe it is, why are we subject to the situation(s)?

I think your struggle devolves from the confusion between God’s omnipotence and our free will, and how the two interact. I think Tantum Ergo’s explanation is excellent.

With respect to topics like these, remember that the devil’s goal is to divide and conquer, obscure and confuse. Your faith should not be determined by your understanding of a difficult philosophical concept. I don’t completely understand it myself. Relax.

 

[fentonsteve]

The Barrister:

I think your struggle devolves from the confusion between God’s omnipotence and our free will, and how the two interact. I think Tantum Ergo’s explanation is excellent.

With respect to topics like these, remember that the devil’s goal is to divide and conquer, obscure and confuse. Your faith should not be determined by your understanding of a difficult philosophical concept. I don’t completely understand it myself. Relax.

The Barrister,
Thanks for all your (name removed by moderator)ut. Just want to add that my faith isn’t negatively affected by my difficulty in understanding some concepts…it actually grows from trying to understand it better. Thanks again!

 

[DuMaurier]

Tantum ergo:

Quite true, Barrister.

In addition, God is above “time”. The idea that God makes us, at moment (x), then sees us “moving through time” to death at moment (Z), while our life is line (Y) is a grossly human and finite vision of His omniscience.

I don’t know who originally came up with this example, but it struck me.

God, being “beyond” time, creates us, we live, die, and are judged, not in “linear” time, but as one “infinity moment”. God “knows” what we do and sees us doing it at “one and the same” time. Seeing us do an action (of our free will), He is neither causing us to do the action (which would NEGATE our free will) nor “predestining” us to hell–or heaven.

Thankfully I’m not a mathematician, so this scenario worked very well for me.

Yes, thats how I see it. Like when you look up at the sky you see millions of stars at different stages of their history all at the same time.

 

[Mijoy2]

If we were to be placed in Heaven and we by-passed our experience here on earth, we’d be so much more limited creatures in our relationship with God. I suspect (and this comes from my personal effort to understand, not from any specific doctrine) that the hope is that we grow in our relationship with God while we live out our worldly journey.

I think of it the following way: If you could so do so, which would you prefer as a friend, a person whom you grew to know, through your past experiences, of which you’ve learned this persons strengths and weaknesses, or would prefer to design a heck of a nice guy and have him as a friend instead?

I try to think, from the perspective of the creator, that we are called to grow towards Him during our journey. We learn to love Him and develope a relationship with Him via His love and His righteousness. Then, when we hopefully go to be with Him throughout eternity, the experience is meaningful and beautiful.
Hope this made some sense.

 

[fentonsteve]

Mijoy2:

If we were to be placed in Heaven and we by-passed our experience here on earth, we’d be so much more limited creatures in our relationship with God. I suspect (and this comes from my personal effort to understand, not from any specific doctrine) that the hope is that we grow in our relationship with God while we live out our worldly journey.

I think of it the following way: If you could so do so, which would you prefer as a friend, a person whom you grew to know, through your past experiences, of which you’ve learned this persons strengths and weaknesses, or would prefer to design a heck of a nice guy and have him as a friend instead?

I try to think, from the perspective of the creator, that we are called to grow towards Him during our journey. We learn to love Him and develope a relationship with Him via His love and His righteousness. Then, when we hopefully go to be with Him throughout eternity, the experience is meaningful and beautiful.
Hope this made some sense.

Very nicely put. I like that perspective. Thanks!