Freesoul's Paradox

[freesoulhope]

I have been pondering a thought…

When we speak of beginnings, we our speaking about something happening within time. But if time itself had a beginning, can we reasonably say that the universe “began”, when taking into account that there was no “time” in which time could begin. The implication is a parodox which says that there was never a “time” when time did not exist, since there was never a “before time” ( “Before” being a time related word). This would seem to give us the impression that time is eternal in a very odd way; yet we can see, through the discoverys of big cosmology and certain mathematical principles, that "time is “finite” along with the universe. The universe cannot be both infinite and finite in nature.

Does anyone wish to rise to the challenge of this brain-busting paradox?

 

[Mirdath]

I think you would really enjoy Edwin Abbott’s Flatland

 

[Keikiolu]

I have been pondering a thought…

When we speak of beginnings, we our speaking about something happening within time. But if time itself had a beginning, can we reasonably say that the universe “began”, when taking into account that there was no “time” in which time could begin. The implication is a parodox which says that there was never a “time” when time did not exist, since there was never a “before time” ( “Before” being a time related word). This would seem to give us the impression that time is eternal in a very odd way; yet we can see, through the discoverys of big cosmology and certain mathematical principles, that "time is “finite” along with the universe. The universe cannot be both infinite and finite in nature.

Does anyone wish to rise to the challenge of this brain-busting paradox?

There are an infinite number of possible positions between any two points in space.

There is a finite distance between those same two points.

The “space” between those two points is both “finite” and “infinite”.

Perhaps there ARE a finite number of positions between those two points in space, due to some “quantation” of space…?

Perhaps the distance between those two points IS infinite, due to some “indeterminancy” because of the nature of “observation”…?

How does this effect the lovely taste of strawberry jam…?

 

[RWMorris]

I have been pondering a thought…Does anyone wish to rise to the challenge of this brain-busting paradox?

I’ll give it a try in my simpleton way.

1. God created time as part of the Creation miracle.
2. Therefore Creation was a Miracle.

3.Miracle is defined:

as an event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.

• The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published online as The Free Dictionary by Farlex. © 2005 by Farlex, Inc.

1. The Bible documents several instances of God altering the flow of time to benefit His Chosen People.
2. God therefore exist outside of time, controls time, can start time, can stop time, and can end time.

Viola`, no paradox.

 

[a_priori]

Time and space did not exist before creation. God has His “being” outside of time and space. The reality outside of time/space is the greater reality.

We live inside of time/space therefore we are unable to see them for what they really are.

I’m reminded of an exchange between Heisenberg and Bohr in the play Copenhagen by Michael Frayn (Act Two):

Bohr: It’s a fascinating paradox.

Heisenberg: You actually loved the paradoxes, that’s your
problem. You revelled in the contradictions.

Bohr: Yes, and you’ve never been able to understand the
suggestiveness of paradox and contradiction. That’s your
problem. You live and breathe paradox and contradiction,
but you can no more see the beauty of them than the fish
can see the beauty of the water!

We are the fish. Time/space is our water. Since we don’t have God’s frame of reference outside of time and space, we have to appreciate our limitations. That’s what faith is.

 

[RWMorris]

I have been pondering a thought…Does anyone wish to rise to the challenge of this brain-busting paradox?

Ops! I messed up. I meant to say:

1. God created time as part of the Creation miracle.
2. Therefore Time is a Miracle.

3.Miracle is defined:

as an event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.

1. The Bible documents several instances of God altering the flow of time to benefit His Chosen People.
2. God therefore exist outside of time, controls time, can start time, can stop time, and can end time.

Viola`, no paradox.

Ahhh…that’s better. Clear as mud.

 

[Spirithound]

When we speak of beginnings, we are speaking about something happening within time. But if time itself had a beginning, can we reasonably say that the universe “began”, when taking into account that there was no “time” in which time could begin. The implication is a parodox which says that there was never a “time” when time did not exist, since there was never a “before time” ( “Before” being a time related word). This would seem to give us the impression that time is eternal in a very odd way; yet we can see, through the discoverys of big cosmology and certain mathematical principles, that "time is “finite” along with the universe. The universe cannot be both infinite and finite in nature.

The unfortunate part about language is that it is imprecise. The fact that we do not have a logical phrase to refer to “before the universe/time”, and indeed cannot even fathom such, since our frame of reference is bound by time, does not mean that it doesn’t exist. Example: our comprehension of God is equally poor.
Can you give a reference/example of the “big cosmology and certain mathematical principles” that show time is finite?
“Eternal” is a rather odd word. We use it to describe God, and thereby give it an infinite definition, but it is also a time-bound word, since we cannot fathom outside of time.

So, start thinking outside of time and space, and all your problems will be effaced.

 

[RWMorris]

Can you give a reference/example of the “big cosmology and certain mathematical principles” that show time is finite?

…the Universe is most likely somewhere between 12 and 16 billion years old, at least according to this method of estimation.
superstringtheory.com/cosmo/cosmo1a.html

WMAP Can Measure the Age of the Universe…[it] is about 13.7 billion years old!
map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101age.html

If you accept the argument that time began when the universe began, then time is about 13.7 billion years old. That’s the best I can do.

 

[RWMorris]

If time began when the universe began, and will end when the universe ceases to exist, then time has a beginning and an end. If that is true then eternity’s allusion to time must be false. Eternity must refer to a reality other than time.

 

[RWMorris]

… If we’re talking about cosmology (rather than the invention of timekeeping devices back in 3500 B.C.), you could say that space and time started with the Big Bang, about 13.7 billion years ago. I can already hear the follow-up questions: “So what happened 13.701 billion years ago? What existed before the Big Bang?” Most scientists would just shrug their shoulders, or provide hand-waving references to quantum fluctuations and multiverses. In “A Brief History of Time,” physicist Stephen Hawking compares such questions to asking what’s north of the North Pole. For answers, you can turn to Hawking’s “no-boundary proposal” — or to scripture.

msnbc.msn.com/id/8475620/

 

[freesoulhope]

Ops! I messed up. I meant to say:

1. God created time as part of the Creation miracle.
2. Therefore Time is a Miracle.

3.Miracle is defined:

1. The Bible documents several instances of God altering the flow of time to benefit His Chosen People.
2. God therefore exist outside of time, controls time, can start time, can stop time, and can end time.

Viola`, no paradox.

Ahhh…that’s better. Clear as mud.

The question is not whether or not God created the universe.

 

[freesoulhope]

If time began when the universe began, and will end when the universe ceases to exist, then time has a beginning and an end. If that is true then eternity’s allusion to time must be false. Eternity must refer to a reality other than time.

If “time” had a beginning, then there was never a “time” when “time” did not exist since there was no “before”. We can not speak of a time when the universe did not exist; this would be a contradiction in terms. But the scientific evidence shows us that time had a beginning; and cannot be eternal since the Laws of cause and effect would be violated. Everything that isn’t “timeless” has to have a beginning including time; hence the paradox.

Its a trick, that can only be actual if something “timeless” actually exists.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Sorry to burst your bubble but “time” is a man made concept. Time is a man defined amount of change. Change is consistent through all history and the reason the Big Bang Theory is incorrect. Just before the big bang the theory holds no change which cannot be correct. So why care, what happened before the ‘bang’ which created our universe? Or for that matter the creation of life on earth?, or for that matter my birth ('um is that your birth)?

 

[freesoulhope]

Sorry to burst your bubble but “time” is a man made concept.

Sorry to burst “your” bubble, but “time” is a man made “word” that decribes a real life “experience”.

 

[WSD]

If time began when the universe began, and will end when the universe ceases to exist, then time has a beginning and an end. If that is true then eternity’s allusion to time must be false. Eternity must refer to a reality other than time.

Time exists in relationship to the existance of matter and the events created by the interaction of matter. So, time could not have existed before matter existed and time and will end once matter ends.
What of God and the heavenly hosts? Are they matter or something else? God only knows

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Sorry to burst “your” bubble, but “time” is a man made “word” that decribes a real life “experience”.

Actually time does not exist in nature, what is experienced is change

Time exists in relationship to the existance of matter and the events created by the interaction of matter. So, time could not have existed before matter existed and time and will end once matter ends…

Close
physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/second.html

 

[freesoulhope]

Actually time does not exist in nature, what is experienced is change

Close
physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/second.html

It is impossible for matter to be in effect with out the lubricant of time. We can see the effect of time simply because things are in motion and things our changing. I have a past; if time did not exist, then there is no reason why i cannot experience my past, present and future at the same time. Things exist in the past as opposed to the present, for i would have to have existed then, in order for me to be here now. There is most definetly a “passing of time” for i existed in different “moments” of time, which are no longer “present”; The changing of things show the presence of time.

Time and matter maybe apart of the same coin; but both definetly exist.

 

[freesoulhope]

ya ya

 

[Texas_Roofer]

It is impossible for matter to be in effect with out the lubricant of time. We can see the effect of time simply because things are in motion and things our changing. I have a past; if time did not exist, then there is no reason why i cannot experience my past, present and future at the same time. Things exist in the past as opposed to the present, for i would have to have existed then, in order for me to be here now. There is most definetly a “passing of time” for i existed in different “moments” of time, which are no longer “present”; The changing of things show the presence of time.

Time and matter maybe apart of the same coin; but both definetly exist.

Sorry
Matter is stored energy. Time is manmade, did you read the reference? Imagine if you were moving at the same speed as the radiation, at that speed the radiation would appear still and thus no change could be measured. At which point time would be standing still ! ! ! So now you understand the theory of relativity. Relative to the speed of travel the radiation change cannot be measured.

Concerning your past, that is changes you know of. Your future is changes to come. You can not mix your past, present, and future because you can not stop change.

 

[a_priori]

Actually time does not exist in nature, what is experienced is change

Of course time exists in nature. Anytime there is a “before” and an “after”, there is time. There is a moment before an atom in the Crab Nebula decays and a moment after it decays.

Time is a dimension. Mathematically, time and space are related.

(For that matter, the Pythogorean Theorum is true whether or not there are people to appreciate it or whether or not an actual right triangle exists anywhere in the universe. A2 + B2 = C2 is metaphysically true.)