Friend Became a Mormon

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Well I assume that they remove the names of those that request it to be done. There are plenty of inactive members that are probably also included in the 15 million (I know that in my former ward, there were more inactive elders than active). There are also people like myself that simply leave and don’t request anything. There are most likely only around 4-5 million active LDS worldwide.

Some LDS will naturally view the 15 million number as a demonstration of the church being true. Unfortunately, there are a number of other churches with higher growth rates and large numbers, started after or around the same time that the LDS Church was founded. 🤷
I wouldn’t make a big deal of the numbers. Yes, they may be inflated more than most religions. All have problems with people leaving and not removing themselves, and with non-practicing members. Many do have ways of assessing or estimating those, however. For instance, while the Catholic Church might claim around 1.3 billion baptized members (which, since Baptism is regeneration and adoption into the Family of God and you’re never cast out completely from that, "once Catholic, always Catholic), we also can estimate how many of those are non-practicing, how many have left, and even how many may reject major teachings or disciplines of the Church. Unfortunately, only a minority of Catholics truly accept and truly try to live out all that the Church teaches–but all religions have the same problem.

Numbers are not really impressive, or evidence of much. With the exception of this: membership AND endurance through time from the beginning of Christianity is a very strong witness to which Church would be the one of which Christ Himself could say, “I will build my Church.”

Since the Catholic Church (and its very similar Orthodox brethren) is the only Church that has endured from the very origin of Christianity, that alone is powerful witness. Add to that the fact that about (more than?) half of ALL Christians are STILL Catholic, and you have a tremendous evidence of the power of Unity. Add to that the distinction that the Catholic Church has been reaching all nations for many centuries, and you have yet another witness.

In these, you find that the Church is One (that evidence of Unity I spoke of), Catholic (truly universal in scope, reaching all nations), and Apostolic (tracing its lineage clearly back to the Apostles through the true method of proof of legitimacy of authority that all human history–even Christ Himself!–has used: dynastic succession).

These are objective, verifiable evidences that weigh far more strongly in favor of the Catholic Church than any other, and grant it unique distinctions–as, for instance, the oldest enduring institution (in essential structure, teachings, and governance) in human history.

Since the devil cannot really create, but only corrupts and destroys, and since his works, then, fall apart and collapse in on themselves, we can quite clearly see that, apart from every human kingdom and every other religion, the Catholic Church stands alone in unity and endurance. If it were the work of the devil, as JS supposed, it would not have proven stronger than Christ’s own Kingdom.

That’s one of the many blasphemous things you have to believe about Christ to believe in a total apostasy: that Christ, who Himself builds His Church, is a failure and a weakling, easily overpowered by man and/or Satan. If such a thing were the case, who would follow a god less powerful than his adversary?
 
Honest answer, Texan, thanks. Now you know my answer to Cumorah being excavated. I’m not sure what’s behind your hostility or uncharitable accusations, but I was being serious.
Yet when it is time to pay up, you disappear…

again, when are you going to start RCIA?
 
Porknpie;11273093:
I’m so excited the LDS church membership has hit 15 million! Such a great work! The Gospel is truly spreading throughout the world! (sarcasm off)

I don’t think they remove resigned or excommunicated people from the number count. Our membership record just has a special code in the database so our information does not go to the local ward. They use us to pad their numbers. They also keep people they lose track of on the list until they are 110 years old. More number padding.
Thanks for the info.
 
Sorry, Texan. I tend not to follow threads here once they get massive. I missed your last several posts:
"TexanKnight:
Here’s my hypothetical: Let’s say that tomorrow, you wake up and hear from a reputable, non-LDS news service that professional non-LDS archaeologists have made some stunning finds in mesoamerica that support the truth claims of the BoM. Something like steel swords, or elephant and precolumbian horse bones, or evidence of huge battles, maybe and a large city complex with “Welcome to Zarahemla” written in a writing system that seems to be some sort of reformed Egyptian.

Texan - if something like that happened, would you change your mind about the truth claims of the BoM and LDS church? Would you switch religions over such an event?

I’m happy to take whatever answer you give, and adopt it as my answer to a similar question about excavating Cumorah and finding nothing.
I have always said that I loved being LDS. I have always said I wish it was true. If what you said happened, and the finds actually proved to be something that verified the Book of Mormon, then I think I would have no choice than to reconsider my current position and very likely return to the LDS Church
I’m happy to take whatever answer you give, and adopt it as my answer to a similar question about excavating Cumorah and finding nothing.
Then start RCIA. Be a man of your word. The Church has already determined there is nothing to find at Cumorah
I see Neuro has refused to honor his part of the deal.

On a related note…I watched General Conference…kept waiting for an announcement that Cumorah would be excavated…
You do not need it excavated. Satellite views have conformed nothing is there. When will you start RCIA?
Yet when it is time to pay up, you disappear…
again, when are you going to start RCIA?
Sincere question - are your tactics here a good example of how Catholics go about inviting people to become Catholic? Twist agreements out of context and then toss accusations?

Anyway, it looks like you need to reread the deal. “I’m happy to take whatever answer you give, and adopt it as my answer to a similar question about excavating Cumorah and finding nothing.”

Did I miss somewhere where that hill has been excavated? The excavation and finding nothing is the thing that triggers my end of the deal - do you have a link to that happening?

Also: “If what you said happened, and the finds actually proved to be something that verified the Book of Mormon, then I think I would have no choice than to reconsider my current position and very likely return to the LDS Church

Should my end of the deal be triggered, there’s nothing here about RCIA. If they excavate Cumorah and found nothing, “I would have no choice than to reconsider my current position”. That doesn’t mean going through RCIA (which I assume is what a Mormon would do if they wanted to be Catholic - I don’t know much about it). I was never Catholic. If there was a place for me to return to, it would be doubt and searching.

Anyway, there - have I responded enough now? From where I’m standing, it looks like you’re one steel sword or mesoamerican battle site away from rebaptism into the LDS church.
 
Sorry, Texan. I tend not to follow threads here once they get massive. I missed your last several posts:

Sincere question - are your tactics here a good example of how Catholics go about inviting people to become Catholic? Twist agreements out of context and then toss accusations?

I have done neither. Is your tactic an example of how Mormons always have to play victim when cornered with truth?

Anyway, it looks like you need to reread the deal. “I’m happy to take whatever answer you give, and adopt it as my answer to a similar question about excavating Cumorah and finding nothing.”

Did I miss somewhere where that hill has been excavated? The excavation and finding nothing is the thing that triggers my end of the deal - do you have a link to that happening?

I expected you to fall back to that out. It is what js would do when caught…he would run. As has been pointed out, the actual excavation does not need to be done as satellite imaging has already proven what excavation would show.

Anyway, there - have I responded enough now? From where I’m standing, it looks like you’re one steel sword or mesoamerican battle site away from rebaptism into the LDS church.

The difference between us is I am a man of my word and will not run or hide from my end of the bargain. I am not surprised by your running, but am very disappointed.
 
Seems to be an unbridgeable gap between me and thee, Texan. I mean, I see your claim “satellite imaging has already proven what excavation would show”. I don’t see your link to your claim. I wonder - if all we need are satellites, how come there are still archaeologists? I took an archaeology class in college - the guy who taught it sure never said anything about how satellites could “prove what excavation would show”. I’m hardly an expert, but I’ve never heard such a claim (outside of critics of my church talking about Cumorah, that is).

You apparently see me as backing out of a deal and playing victim, cornered by the truth.

🤷

I guess the best I can hope for here, is for folks to witness the exchange between us and make up their own minds. Neither of us seem to be budging an inch.

Last word is yours.
 
Seems to be an unbridgeable gap between me and thee, Texan. I mean, I see your claim “satellite imaging has already proven what excavation would show”. I don’t see your link to your claim. I wonder - if all we need are satellites, how come there are still archaeologists? I took an archaeology class in college - the guy who taught it sure never said anything about how satellites could “prove what excavation would show”. I’m hardly an expert, but I’ve never heard such a claim (outside of critics of my church talking about Cumorah, that is).

You apparently see me as backing out of a deal and playing victim, cornered by the truth.

🤷

I guess the best I can hope for here, is for folks to witness the exchange between us and make up their own minds. Neither of us seem to be budging an inch.

Last word is yours.
news.sciencemag.org/2011/05/satellite-imagery-uncovers-17-lost-egyptian-pyramids
archive.archaeology.org/1007/etc/caracol.html

The point being, hours and hours of searching for where to dig, can be saved by infrared satellite imaging. I don’t know of anyone who’s tried any archaeology at the NY Hill Cumorah site.

Why do LDS put all this speculation into Mayan sites, when they have THE site in NY? The skeptic (us) see that is is fear that what is claimed to be there, isn’t there.

BTW, we covered LiDAR in the college archaeology course I took.
 
Seems to be an unbridgeable gap between me and thee, Texan. I mean, I see your claim “satellite imaging has already proven what excavation would show”. I don’t see your link to your claim. I wonder - if all we need are satellites, how come there are still archaeologists? I took an archaeology class in college - the guy who taught it sure never said anything about how satellites could “prove what excavation would show”. I’m hardly an expert, but I’ve never heard such a claim (outside of critics of my church talking about Cumorah, that is).

You apparently see me as backing out of a deal and playing victim, cornered by the truth.

🤷

I guess the best I can hope for here, is for folks to witness the exchange between us and make up their own minds. Neither of us seem to be budging an inch.

Last word is yours.
Not budging an inch? I made an agreement. I would absolutely stick to it.

That is budging.

You made an agreement. There has been satellite excavation only because the lds church is afraid to do the real thing (which should also tell you something) The images show there is NOTHING

you will not keep your end of the bargain. THAT is not budging.

Again…not surprised. But disappointed.
 
news.sciencemag.org/2011/05/satellite-imagery-uncovers-17-lost-egyptian-pyramids
archive.archaeology.org/1007/etc/caracol.html

The point being, hours and hours of searching for where to dig, can be saved by infrared satellite imaging. I don’t know of anyone who’s tried any archaeology at the NY Hill Cumorah site.

Why do LDS put all this speculation into Mayan sites, when they have THE site in NY? The skeptic (us) see that is is fear that what is claimed to be there, isn’t there.

BTW, we covered LiDAR in the college archaeology course I took.
thanks. But it will fall on deaf ears. I have met very few Mormons who have kept their word to me. Makes me sad…and thus I pray for them.
 
Can we please get back on track. This thread has gone super off topic. If you want to discuss excavating the Hill Cumorah, start another thread.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss reaction/approach once friends convert to or are wish to convert to the LDS faith.

thank you.
 
Seems to be an unbridgeable gap between me and thee, Texan. I mean, I see your claim “satellite imaging has already proven what excavation would show”. I don’t see your link to your claim. I wonder - if all we need are satellites, how come there are still archaeologists? I took an archaeology class in college - the guy who taught it sure never said anything about how satellites could “prove what excavation would show”. I’m hardly an expert, but I’ve never heard such a claim (outside of critics of my church talking about Cumorah, that is).

You apparently see me as backing out of a deal and playing victim, cornered by the truth.

🤷

I guess the best I can hope for here, is for folks to witness the exchange between us and make up their own minds. Neither of us seem to be budging an inch.

Last word is yours.
Have you forgotten about Thomas S Ferguson, mormon archeologist?

From Wiki (bolding mine)

In 1955 Thomas Ferguson, a Latter Day Saint and the founder of the New World Archaeological Foundation, with five years of funding from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), began to dig throughout Mesoamerica for evidence of the veracity of the Book of Mormon claims. In a 1961 newsletter Ferguson predicted that although nothing had been found, the Book of Mormon cities would be found within 10 years.[citation needed] In 1972, Christian scholar Hal Hougey wrote to Ferguson questioning the progress given the stated timetable in which the cities would be found.[25] Replying to Hougey as well as secular and non-secular requests, Ferguson wrote in a letter dated June 5, 1972: “Ten years have passed … I had sincerely hoped that Book-of-Mormon cities would be positively identified within 10 years — and time has proved me wrong in my anticipation.”[26]

During the period of 1959–1961, NWAF colleague Dee Green was editor of the BYU Archaeological Society Newsletter and had an article from it published in the summer of 1969 edition of Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, pp 76–78 in which he acknowledged that the NWAF findings did not back up the veracity of the Book of Mormon claims. After this article and another six years of fruitless search, Thomas Ferguson published a 29-page paper in 1975 entitled Written Symposium on Book-of-Mormon Geography: Response of Thomas S. Ferguson to the Norman & Sorenson Papers where he concluded, “I’m afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book-of-Mormon geography”.[27] In referring to his own paper, Ferguson wrote a 20 February 1976 letter to Mr & Mrs H.W. Lawrence in which he stated:** “The real implication of the paper is that you can’t set the Book-of-Mormon geography down anywhere — because it is fictional and will never meet the requirements of the dirt-archeology. I should say — what is in the ground will never conform to what is in the book.”[28]**

The archaeological investigations of NWAF-sponsored projects have contributed towards the documentation and understanding of pre-Columbian societies, particularly in Mesoamerica. Currently BYU maintains 86 documents on the work of the NWAF at the BYU NWAF website and these documents are used outside both BYU and the LDS Church by researchers.

If memory serves, didn’t Ferguson end up leaving mormonism? Wonder why. 🤷
 
Can we please get back on track. This thread has gone super off topic. If you want to discuss excavating the Hill Cumorah, start another thread.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss reaction/approach once friends convert to or are wish to convert to the LDS faith.

thank you.
Some random thoughts on your point:

Doesn’t how you approach it vary in as many ways that people and relationships vary? How we react to the convert is in some ways dependent on how the convert now sees us. Do we remain close friends who do things and interact just as we did before or are we now viewed as a project, someone in desperate need of what they have? I have friends and family who in their zeal for their new religion have spent all our time together extolling the virtues of their new religion while denigrating my own. In some of these cases this was directed not only at me but at my kids. The people who “targeted” my kids were “distanced” until either the zeal wore off or they were no longer close friends. Angry note here, DO NOT pretend to invite my kids over to your home on a pretext only to have some “church” people over to talk to them.

I would also think the approach would be different with those who are looking into converting as opposed to those who have already converted. With those looking you might discuss issues in a general way. Those who have converted may see such discussion as an attack on what the have chosen.

I suppose if I had to give a general plan it would be

Hold and cherish the friendship
Hold and articulate your Catholic faith
Remember that although friendship is a dear and wonderful thing, it has many levels, and it maybe wise to pull closer or pull back.
 
Catholics ought to emulate some of the reaching out that Mormons do. I have a co worker who is a devout Mormon. He is a strong family man who is a role model. He’s a wonderful coworker too, a shining light on the hill in his conduct.

Every Sunday he goes to church then makes his visits, going to various homes within his ward.

I’ve been contemplating going back to church, nobody has visited me and paid me much mind, even though several people know I’m contemplating a return. No one paid much mind when I went to church either. They just showed up at Mass and then went on their way. Nobody reached out to my fatherless kids either.

So, I envy the Mormons and their strong devotion to church and each other. I can see how people are drawn to them, they have a lot going for them and are excellent witnesses to Gods caring and love.
 
Catholics ought to emulate some of the reaching out that Mormons do. I have a co worker who is a devout Mormon. He is a strong family man who is a role model. He’s a wonderful coworker too, a shining light on the hill in his conduct.

Every Sunday he goes to church then makes his visits, going to various homes within his ward.

I’ve been contemplating going back to church, nobody has visited me and paid me much mind, even though several people know I’m contemplating a return. No one paid much mind when I went to church either. They just showed up at Mass and then went on their way. Nobody reached out to my fatherless kids either.

So, I envy the Mormons and their strong devotion to church and each other. I can see how people are drawn to them, they have a lot going for them and are excellent witnesses to Gods caring and love.
That is the one thing I miss being LDS: the camaraderie
 
news.sciencemag.org/2011/05/satellite-imagery-uncovers-17-lost-egyptian-pyramids
archive.archaeology.org/1007/etc/caracol.html

The point being, hours and hours of searching for where to dig, can be saved by infrared satellite imaging. I don’t know of anyone who’s tried any archaeology at the NY Hill Cumorah site.

Why do LDS put all this speculation into Mayan sites, when they have THE site in NY? The skeptic (us) see that is is fear that what is claimed to be there, isn’t there.

BTW, we covered LiDAR in the college archaeology course I took.
Great links! Thank you. 🙂
 
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